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Old 01-03-2008, 02:57   #331
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Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
We sailed the Dean 440 "upwindish" in 30 - 40 knots of wind only using the jib. Absolutely no slamming at all! And very stable and secure feeling onboard. 7 adults and 4 children, 1 to 5 years old. The averege speed was around 8 knots with some paeks at 11 knots.
Not bad. Sounds like you had the entire family on board: parents, siblings, cousin, aunts and anyone else in the vicinity. I'd be more worried about keeping the peace than getting the boat from A to B ... Seriously though, that's a lot of people and you were still moving forward at quite a pace without any slamming. Impressive.

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In lighter wind it felt a little heavy, but honestly, we were cruising with a beer can in our hands in the sun. No one was to keen "work the lines "to hard.
I totally understand. The light wind performance is an aspect I focus a lot on, because a well performing cat means I can keep the engines turned off (like they should be).

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The Nautitech was our first love. We sailed a 40 for one week and liked it very much. Some cons though; not a very good galley, rather small cabins with high berths, small heads and no separate shower (we had the 4-cabin version). Pros; nice cockpit, easy to sail, and yes, I some how like the dual helms (feels more salierish).
The cons you mention are all things I thought when I looked at it online. The ironic thing is that I'm willing to sacrifice all of those (almost take them for granted) on an Outremer, but on a cat like the Nautitech it is a minus, because we don't get the performance that "could" make it worthwhile to make those sacrifices. I say "could" because my girlfriend is not sold on tiny galleys and heads. The Nautitech 44 looks awesome, but like you say: Too expensive. An older Nautitech 47 is within reach, but I looked at one when I was in Florida and for 2 people it's simply too big. We don't need all the space.

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Have you seen Adaeros data sheet with some interesting formulas?
I need to have another look at his sheet.

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Same for us - start from Sweden. I hope I will find a cat in Europe. The plan for to day is to set sail next summer, 2009, and to be away from home for 1 - 1,5 years.
Sounds good. If all goes as planned I'll be sailing the boat to Norway in May-June 2009 from wherever I purchase her. I'm guessing the US, because of the exchange rate, but we'll see.
We should keep in touch. It would be fun to meet up. There are too few mulit-hullers in Scandinavia.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:50   #332
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Not bad. Sounds like you had the entire family on board: parents, siblings, cousin, aunts and anyone else in the vicinity. I'd be more worried about keeping the peace than getting the boat from A to B ... Seriously though, that's a lot of people and you were still moving forward at quite a pace without any slamming. Impressive.
And - it also included my Mother in Law...

But the Dean really managed it well!

//Zoltan
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Old 01-03-2008, 13:07   #333
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2. Daggerboard cats tend to have much lower draft (this is good not only when heading into shallow anchorages, but also when you’re stuck in horrible waves and need the cat to “slip” sideways down the waves).
Hi Andreas - As for shallow water access, the deepest part of a dagger board cat is usually the rudders - and depending on the cat, these can be just about as deep as mini keels on a non-board cat. For example, the rudders on my boat are about 1,1 meters deep.

Dave
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Old 01-03-2008, 13:32   #334
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Hallo Andreas

on the FastCat the mini keels are 1.10 meters and the rudders are 90 cm deep, she can be beeched on both.
Looking forward to our sail in April

Greetings
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Old 01-03-2008, 22:05   #335
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Hi Andreas - As for shallow water access, the deepest part of a dagger board cat is usually the rudders - and depending on the cat, these can be just about as deep as mini keels on a non-board cat. For example, the rudders on my boat are about 1,1 meters deep.

Dave
Hi Dave,

I didn't realize that the Catana's stuck that deep. I just checked the Catana 431 and on the spec sheet it says that it sticks 1.2 meters with the boards up. I'm assuming that's the rudders as well. What's the draft of the actual hulls?

In terms of safety, that is a thing I 'll have to keep in mind, because if the rudders are the deepest point, they are the most vulnerable in case of a grounding. It's nice to have mini-keels in front of them, should the unfortunate happen.
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Old 02-03-2008, 00:47   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail2009 View Post
In terms of safety, that is a thing I 'll have to keep in mind, because if the rudders are the deepest point, they are the most vulnerable in case of a grounding. It's nice to have mini-keels in front of them, should the unfortunate happen.
With daggerboards mark the board with a position where the board is just slightly deeper than the rudder. Better to find out with the board rather than the rudder

Mike
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:01   #337
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Choosing a cat for long distance cruising

Great to see that others are/have been through the same process that I have been through!
I have read lots of boat tests - these are generally too positive! The only exception are some of the big french magazines like Voile - but tough to work through with my limited french.
I have crawled through numerous boats, and sailed on quite a few. Having owned cats for the last 15 years, I have a pretty clear idea of what I want, what I can accept, and what I absolutely will not accept.

Based on this, I started looking around for a long distance cruiser about 3 years ago. After a couple of years, I gave up and decided to design my own, as I could not find the right balance of compromises in any of the standard boats. I know this is the expensive route to take, but have chosen to give it a shot. (There is a thread on my bi-rig design)

My "short form", very generalised version of my conclusion is:
"All" the boats that are also used in charter fleets are heavy. Typical performance is around 40-50% of wind speed at best. Forget about sailing in less than 8-10 knots. Tacking angles are between 100 and 120 degrees in a bit of seaway. These boats will seldom do more than their hull speeds in less than 15-18 knots of wind
Most of the rigs are overbuilt and strong, the boats are underrigged for lighter conditions. Rig designs are often simple, but limit downwind sailing with the main due to chafe issues.
Bridgedeck heights of less than 0.9m fully loaded is about the minimum I want.
Generally the older French boats are well engineered with good service access.

At the other end we have the Outremers, Lerouge designs etc. Again very generalised: Good/acceptable performance but limited space in the hulls - small bunks - limited storage. You need to get up between 45 and 50 feet to get a bit of comfort. These boats are often not as well engineered as the high volume production boats (a bit "agricultural" finish sometimes).

Beware of weight specifications - this is a jungle, with the truth often well hidden. What I suggest is that you try and get a well defined specification, and then make a list of whatever extra equipment you want, look up the weights on the internet, and add these plus a bit for installation. Or else try and get hold of some actual weights from places where they lift boats out.

10% extra weight will easily knock 10% of your speed, and especially in light winds this is an issue.

The flip side of the coin is what you have to pay to get better performance - this and the expected sales price later are of course issues.

I expect to be able to build a custom boat for at least 20% less than the same size "charter cat" with the same specification, but twice the weight.

So you might consider using a standard design from a good designer, customise it to your requirements, and get it built. This takes about a year - will need alot of involvement to begin with, but in my opinion should give more satisfaction .....
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:37   #338
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Hi Dave,

I didn't realize that the Catana's stuck that deep. I just checked the Catana 431 and on the spec sheet it says that it sticks 1.2 meters with the boards up. I'm assuming that's the rudders as well. What's the draft of the actual hulls?

In terms of safety, that is a thing I 'll have to keep in mind, because if the rudders are the deepest point, they are the most vulnerable in case of a grounding. It's nice to have mini-keels in front of them, should the unfortunate happen.
Andreas - 1.2 meters on the 431 might be a bit conservative, i.e., a bit deep. This would make them deeper than mine which I know from actual measurement. My boat sits higher than design water line because I know it's lighter weight because I don't have as many extras on board like a gen set, AC, dive compressor, wide screen TV and surround sound system, etc. Regardless of the actual value on the 431, the rudders are the deepest. As for the deepest part of the hull, on my 471 with my existing loading, the depth sounder transducer is almost exactly 2 feet below the water line. I believe it's positioned at the deepest part of the hull (stbd, in this case). I know this because I measured and set my depth sounder to indicate depth below the water line. The 431 hull depth is probably slightly less with similar loading.

Yes, having boards for their performance and safety advantages means you give up the benefits of fixed mini keels, one of which is less danger to rudders from groundings. Pick your poison. I have grounded my rudders several times. But all of these occasions was when I knew I was in shallow water (with soft bottom) and was motoring very slowly because I couldn't see the bottom. No risk of damage. That's a poison I can take. The bigger danger is hitting something floating like a log or container out in the middle of "clear" water. Assuming my boards were up if this happens, the floating object would have to get past the bow, the deepest part of the hull, and then rise enough (albeit not much) to hit the rudder. In this case, perhaps the saildrive would become sacrificial and take one for the team.

Don't forget you'll have two rudders and two sail drives/shafts. You can save your boat and your self with one of each.

Dave
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:59   #339
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With daggerboards mark the board with a position where the board is just slightly deeper than the rudder. Better to find out with the board rather than the rudder

Mike
A daggerboard Cat like Outremer has skegs to protect the props and rudders. And, depsite Gunboat's take, the skegs don't really hurt performance that much, as they only end up breaking the water for the rudder drag anyway.
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:18   #340
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A daggerboard Cat like Outremer has skegs to protect the props and rudders.
Some, not all, Catanas have skegs. I forgot to mention this because mine does not. However, the skegs on Catanas that do have them are only deep enough and positioned to protect the saildrives - to protect the rudders thay would have to be REALLY big and these wouldn't protect the saildrives as the saildrives are forward of the rudders. The Catana skegs were paired with "sealegs" bow attachments that supposedly permitted intentional beaching (if you put blocks under the skegs to keep the rudders from landing). I understand they didn't work too well and might have been discontinued as options.

Again, pick your poison.

Dave
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Old 02-03-2008, 08:25   #341
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Some, not all, Catanas have skegs. I forgot to mention this because mine does not. However, the skegs on Catanas that do have them are only deep enough and positioned to protect the saildrives - to protect the rudders thay would have to be REALLY big and these wouldn't protect the saildrives as the saildrives are forward of the rudders. The Catana skegs were paired with "sealegs" bow attachments that supposedly permitted intentional beaching (if you put blocks under the skegs to keep the rudders from landing). I understand they didn't work too well and might have been discontinued as options.

Again, pick your poison.

Dave
The Outremer skegs are forward of the propellers. They are seperate from the rudders.
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Old 02-03-2008, 09:29   #342
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The Outremer skegs are forward of the propellers. They are seperate from the rudders.
I understand - same as the Catana version - but only deep enough to protect the saildrives. They would not protect the much deeper rudders from anything unless it was a floating object that slid along the hull bottom and thus could hit the skeg. I believe the Outremer versions are similar - not deep enough to protect the bottom of the rudders.

Dave
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Old 02-03-2008, 09:38   #343
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Skegs do cost speed , the spaces between the rudders and the skegs are hydrodynamic disasters and cost performance. The Catana,s without skegs perform better like the 471 than the versions with, the balance rudders are better shaped. Another advantage is control much better without skegs.
I came to the same conclusion as Alan ( Nordic Cat ) 6 years ago and for that reason started building the Fastcat. I was looking for comfort combined with performance and space and I could not find it, I came close to purchasing a Catana 471 but when I told the sales person that I wanted a lighter better performing one he told me it was not possible.
If you are looking for performance in a boat the simple way is looking at the weight versus sail area , A cruising /charter cat will have 8 to 12 squire meters of sail area per 1000 kilo of weigth , a performance cruising cat will have 12 to 18 squire meters of sail area per 1000 kilo and a high performance cruising/racing cat will have over 18 squire meters of sail area per metric ton, an outright racer will have over 25 m2 per ton.
A Lagoon 42 at the slow end of the cats, ( I am saying nothing against a Lagoon 42 ) and a Gunboat/Outremer/Fastcat on the other side. all other production cats fall in between. The nice thing with a lightweight performance cat is that they will move with a bit of wind and with a lot they will race but you take down sails faster.

Gideon
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:13   #344
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rudder and saildrive protection

I have decided to have some short LAR keels that will be 30cms/1 ft under the deepest part of the hulls, and then let the daggerboards exit these in a way that leaves the daggerboard hole protected from debris and stones etc.

This gives me the best of both worlds. Protection of the props and rudders, as well as windward perforfmance. The bottom of the rudders will be 15cm/6" higher up, and be the balanced type

The mini keels are also meant to be used when hauling the boat, or beaching, to get the bottom free for cleaning.
This is made possible by the fact that the balance point of the boat and the daggerboard position are pretty much the same when using a bi-rig.

Alan
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Old 16-05-2008, 09:40   #345
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After a year of spending endless hours online, reading every book about catamarans that I could get my hands on, test sailing and seeing as many different boats as possible I have finally found and bought what I think is my ideal boat. The boat I ended up with is a FastCat 435.

When I look at the initial list I drafted when I started this thread, I'm actually proud, because I've stayed true to it. I didn't make many compromises, but those I did was because you helped me rethink things I found important. I'm very happy and grateful for the feed-back, comments, private messages and emails I've received from everyone on this board. Without your help, God knows what I'd be sailing around with! I hope to meet many of you as I make my way around the World, starting next summer.
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