Are Cats truly bluewater/long passage capable?

[44'cruisingcat]

http://kelsall.com/images/articles/A...sAndSafety.pdf

A cat held over at 90' and still exerting a righting moment? Surely not? In another thread there is a sailing school (RYA) telling people that cats capsize if heeled beyond 15'!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ity-10963.html

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by rickm505

Why is it that we have to do this every couple of weeks or so? You'd think there was enough written on this subject right here in the forum to keep anyone awake nights reading.

If we get tired of cats or monos, we can always do, 'Paper or plastic'
Paper vs. Plastic - The Shopping Bag Debate

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Don - I strongly suggest you not get a cat, do not take it out of sight of land, and whatever you do, do not take it to high latitudes.

Dave

Dave, that's awesome - not to hijack the thread - There seems to be little written about high latitude sailing, much less in a cat. Would love to hear more about your experiences.

As much as I love the tropics, I'd sure love to get to Alaska, Halifax, Hobart, etc someday....

[David M]

I know of one racer who switched from cats to monohulls. He basically wanted a drier boat and more competition. If everyone is going slower but roughly the same speed, then that is drier and still competitive. The monohull fleet he joined had a lot more boats which for him made it all that much more fun. You have to admit, there are a hell of a lot more monohulls out there.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Dave, that's awesome - not to hijack the thread - There seems to be little written about high latitude sailing, much less in a cat. Would love to hear more about your experiences.

As much as I love the tropics, I'd sure love to get to Alaska, Halifax, Hobart, etc someday....

If you get the opportunity over there, check out the Australian version of Multihull World, issue number 89. There is an article about "Fallado" a cat which went round Cape Horn from east to west. Some good photo's of it in basically a sea of ice, alongside one of the glaciers in the Beagle channel.

Interestingly that boat was designed from the outset to sail in high lattitudes, and it has truly dead flat bottoms on the hulls, with just a single chine.

Found a website: Fallado's Circumnavigation

http://www.fallado.net/images/IrfanS...w/Image10.html

[BigCat]

"As much as I love the tropics, I'd sure love to get to Alaska, Halifax, Hobart, etc someday...."

Adagio's Adventures

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Dave, that's awesome - not to hijack the thread - There seems to be little written about high latitude sailing, much less in a cat. Would love to hear more about your experiences.

As much as I love the tropics, I'd sure love to get to Alaska, Halifax, Hobart, etc someday....

Sorry, Mark - I have nothing to tell. The previous owner of my boat took her around the horn east to west.

Dave

[catty]

"interestingly that boat was designed from the outset to sail in high lattitudes, and it has truly dead flat bottoms on the hulls, with just a single chine."

Yes 44c. It is a obviously a very seaworthy vessel. The owner was so interested in performance that they actually dispensed with the boards for a while as stated in an early article ,from memory. Is the hull actually chinned? From memory it was strip planked cedar with a hard turn to the bilge. The owner was very concerned about a boats ability to surf sideways.

If your concerned about the performance of your flat bottomed hulls try Richard Woods or Malcom Tennants "sites". They have some well researched and simply explained hull design info.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Dave, that's awesome - not to hijack the thread - There seems to be little written about high latitude sailing, much less in a cat. Would love to hear more about your experiences.

As much as I love the tropics, I'd sure love to get to Alaska, Halifax, Hobart, etc someday....

I don't understand why people keep saying this, but it makes me VERY nervous to hear it.

Nothing against Mark... he is just echoing what I keep hearing over and over and over again.

I'm bringing my cat up to a place just West of Halifax right now.

I'm starting a new thread on this... you guys keep scaring the crap out of me.

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

I don't understand why people keep saying this, but it makes me VERY nervous to hear it.

Nothing against Mark... he is just echoing what I keep hearing over and over and over again.

I'm bringing my cat up to a place just West of Halifax right now.

I'm starting a new thread on this... you guys keep scaring the crap out of me.

I think something was lost in translation. I wasn't echoing anything - nor have I heard such assertions "over and over".

I neither made nor make any comments about high latitude sailing, other than I'm interested in it. What I said was that there was "little written" about high latitude sailing (in general), much less in a cat.

That was in response to 2Hulls tongue in cheek reply to a previous nervous nellie. He attached a photo of his cat next to an iceberg, so I was curious to learn if there were any special preparation or equipment required. I've been to British Columbia cruising the islands many times and am looking to get further afield (north and south).

I look forward to reading your new thread and the links others have included in this thread.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Don - I strongly suggest you not get a cat, do not take it out of sight of land, and whatever you do, do not take it to high latitudes.

Dave

I was amazed to see this also.
Not sure about the link.

javascript:;

Nope, can't seem to get it right.

You can go to
Gemini 105Mc Cruising Catamaran Media Page
and click on > Gemini 105Mc Patagonian Channels Interactive Slide Show

There was a blog of the trip too but I cannot find it.

I realize the Gemini does not have much business in places like this, or crossing the Atlantic for that matter, but 14 footers have crossed the Atlantic too............

[ssullivan]

Hey Mark,

Sorry... my reply wasn't really directed at you personally. These are things I keep hearing over and over on the forum. Your post reminded me of the comments. Please don't take offense. I didn't mean any.

Sean

Originally Posted by Mark424

I think something was lost in translation. I wasn't echoing anything - nor have I heard such assertions "over and over".

I neither made nor make any comments about high latitude sailing, other than I'm interested in it. What I said was that there was "little written" about high latitude sailing (in general), much less in a cat.

That was in response to 2Hulls tongue in cheek reply to a previous nervous nellie. He attached a photo of his cat next to an iceberg, so I was curious to learn if there were any special preparation or equipment required. I've been to British Columbia cruising the islands many times and am looking to get further afield (north and south).

I look forward to reading your new thread and the links others have included in this thread.

[Rhosyn Mor]

Any boat can be a " bluewater" boat, or converted to one. water sailing">Blue water sailing is about skill, technique and equipment. The knowledge of how to sail YOUR boat in an open ocean is probably more important than anything. ( I sail a Monhull) I would much rather sail open water in a WEsterly 26 with a skipper who knows their boat than a Whatever 60 with a green skipper. Mon/ multi hull actually makes no difference

[Steve Rust]

Originally Posted by dcstrng

Did find his general statement interesting: “When you combine the action of wind and waves, a catamaran is more vulnerable than a tri, because when a boat is sailing the heaving action of the wave on the windward hull imparts rolling momentum to the boat, reducing the energy reserve left under the righting moment… Cats are more vulnerable than tris because in general the static stability of the cat is less than an equivalent tri. This is the main reason that tris are considered to be safer for short handed racing - they can be sailed harder in waves with a greater margin of safety…” Hmmmm...

Nonetheless, reading between the lines, Shuttleworth seems to lean towards cats, as do many cruisers – if I’m understanding what folks are saying generally -- so there must be something I’m missing… less costly to build two versus three hulls and/or cats heel less than modern tris providing some semblance of something, or – more likely – some set of factors I haven’t considered… still in the minimalist sizing of my theoretical voyager it looks like there is much to choose from… if, I knew the seaworthiness specs… Monos are relatively easy to ball-park, cuz many of the specs are clear – don’t think I’ve broken the code on multis yet, however…

dcstrng,

I think in theory a cat is more vulnerable to wind and the tri more to waves but since you seldom have one without the other it may be a wash. I don't think to much about that aspect and would be comfortable with either one.

As far as trimarans go it was figured out quite early what design parameters needed to be followed and they have not changed much. Lets exclude the racing/sport boats here. These figures give a good balance between longitudinal and transverse stability. Increasing the beam beyond this has diminishing returns. Overall beam measured float centerline to centerline should be around 60% of mainhull waterline length. Small boats need a little more, larger boats can have a little less. Hull length to beam ratio measured at main hull waterline beam and waterline length should be between 6/1 to 8/1. Float displacement should be 100-150 percent and almost as long as the mainhull. . As I mentioned earlier size plays a big part with about 30 feet being the minimum. If I take these numbers and apply them to my old Searunner it falls right into the middle. So you can see that many of these old boats are as seaworthy as newer designs. The newer boats gain a performance edge due to lighter more modern materials and construction techniques.

Which Constant Camber design do you like? There are the open wing Fast Cruiser designs or the center cockpit models.

Hope this helps a little.

[dcstrng]

<Which Constant Camber design do you like…>

Steve; my minimalist heart likes the CC 32 (or, if left to my own devices even the CC 26 or that smallish CC 30), but my head says probably more in line with the CC 35A – not being a fan of center-cockpits… My cautious inquisitiveness in multis has pretty much to do with uncomplicated performance (and shoal draft, perhaps…) and not much to do with cabin accommodations – I’m perfectly content with the cabin on my Bristol although the little rascal clearly is smallish by many folk’s standards… as a refugee of the geriatric ward I would like standing headroom somewhere in the vessel, but am not much enamored with condo living, floating or otherwise…

Someone posted links to Kelsall’s articles on cats… very interesting and well presented – as best as I can deduce he seems to maintain that the cat v. tri debate is as much tradition as anything aero/hydrodynamic… still, to my eye a cat with a standing headroom cabin on the bridge-deck starts off with the cabin weight elevated pretty high to gain enough for wave clearance, and then going up, so a “rule-of-thumb” of 35+/- being a cat v. tri dividing line worked for my head…

Even partial open wing tris would have as much cabin room as I’m used to and the accommodation placement wouldn’t offend my naiveté… cat’s in the high 20s to mid 30s, on the other hand, would simply have to have an open cockpit (with split accommodations) to satisfy my inexperienced eye… again, certainly no big reach – just a center-cockpit athwart-ships rather than along the keel… but I guess it’s as much that I’ve had a soft spot in my heart for Marple’s CC work for some time… Don’t know if it is or not, but Marple’s minimalist CC 30 looks quite reminiscent of Mike McMullen’s last tri; Three Cheers (wasn’t that a Newick design…??). The venture admittedly meet with an ill-fated end, but doubt it had anything to do with the vessel… was modestly well read on multis back then, but after that episode my interest faded until recent curiosity…