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Old 03-02-2016, 13:40   #1
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Cats Sailing to Wind

I'm narrowing down my choice of a cat to a few types that offer, in general, more comfort than performance especially regarding sailing to windward.

I'm wondering what experience some of you may have regarding performance of these types of boats especially with respect to going upwind.

In general I've ruled out the daggerboard boats as I will be living aboard and would prefer a roomier home. If the performance upwind is so terrible that it's nearly impossible to go upwind I might amend my criteria to go after the more performance crafts with daggerboards like outremers, schionnings, catanas etc.

The boats I am currently considering include the Lagoon 400s, Leopards 39-40, F/P Liparis.

I'd love to hear from those of you with hands on experience of those three boats which one might offer the better upwind performance as a general rule.

Thank you kindly!
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Old 03-02-2016, 13:55   #2
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

From your list, I only have hands on experience with the L400, but am more than happy with her windward performance. I assume the other models listed would be similar unless told otherwise.
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Old 03-02-2016, 20:05   #3
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

In December, in a 48 hour period I sailed 340NM across the Tasman sea (Goldcoast seaway to Middleton Reef) making 100 degrees in a strong southeasterly of between 25-35kts.
Like Monte, my (our) experience seems discordant to the views and expectations of many forum experts who repeatedly state that these sort of boats do not sail to windward.
Suffice to say, you need to know how to trim, have good sails and work to keep the boat lighter. That being said, we had full fuel (625 litres), full water (900litres) and provisions for 6 X 14 days).
If the question relates to comfort, then I would say that it's never comfortable going to windward then the wind is up and has been for days irrespective of what vessel you are on. Did we sleep well, yes. Did we eat well, you bet. Did we drink champagne from tall flutes each evening - always!
Rent, try, experience, and then form your own views.
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Old 03-02-2016, 20:57   #4
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

We chartered a F/P Lipari 44 a year ago. Our own boat is a full-depth-keel monohull. While the cat certainly didn't sail upwind like our boat, she did better than we expected. She pointed quite well but the leeward slip was significant. I'd say that the GPS tacking angle was around 110 degrees in upper-teens true wind. Six years ago, we were crew on a Sunsail Lagoon 400, which didn't do nearly as well, perhaps 120 degrees at best, but had badly worn sails.
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Old 03-02-2016, 22:48   #5
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

L400, you need a bit of practice in my opinion. I am still in learning mode it but managed to improve windward speed on average for 1 kn and lessen drift.

I achieved this by "Speed first".

Also L 400 are extremely stiff and this can be helpfull but I am having only occasional successfull feedback.

I cant be bothered driving manually, so all my rules are based on AP.

I think knowing your boat well is helpful.

And sometimes it shines. High bows are really great to windward.

L400 is purposely undercanvassed. this is for chartering purposes. To get proper boat, one needs light wind sails. I have gennaker and can manage 75 true, or at least this is how much i managed so far. L39 uses gennaker all the way to 50 true, if polars to be believed from lagoon page but only up to 15 kn app.
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Old 04-02-2016, 00:22   #6
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Ok I'll throw my five cents in here. We are basically full time cruisers and own a Lgoon 410 S2. On the odd occasion we have to go to Windward but when we do I am more than satisfied with the boats windward performance. My mate owns a 2004 Bavaria 37 foot mono and he's a reasonable sailer ( no worse than me ) and we sail as well to windward to him. I'm more than satisfied with our boats performance but we cruise and not interested in racing.
At the end of the day you are the person who has to be satisfied with the boats sailing performance.


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Old 04-02-2016, 03:27   #7
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Wind View Post
..
Like Monte, my (our) experience seems discordant to the views and expectations of many forum experts who repeatedly state that these sort of boats do not sail to windward.
....
Did not see anybody, expert or not, saying that type of boats cannot sail to windward. I saw many saying that the performance is not as good as a multihull with dagger-boards or the average modern mono-hull with a deep keel.

I think this video will give the OP a good idea.

The owner of the cat talks about a difference of about 5 pointing ability regarding a multihull with daggerboards. The Barramundi is much lighter than the Lagoon and will have a much better performance in light winds but not necessarily a better pointing ability in medium winds.

I think also that this article about keels versus daggerboards on cats, by the designer of the Barramundi (one of the best fast cat designers) can contribute to form an opinion.

http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/cat_TKS.htm

Regarding monohulls, like on multihulls the pointing ability is far from the same. With my old Bavaria 36, with deep keel and good sails I could outperform my friend's Oceanis 39 by about 5. My actual boat can outperform my old Bavaria 36 by 5 or more. A racing narrow monohull can out perform my actual boat by 5 and finally the Oceanis 39 can outperform upwind an old full keeler by 5.

Like on monohulls on cats something similar will happen but certainly they all can sail to windward, ones better than others.
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Old 04-02-2016, 05:37   #8
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

I spent about 10 years on a Chris White designed Voyager 45.
She had two keels and one daggerboard. Draft was 3'6" with the board up, 7'3" down. We rarely used the board unless we really wanted to point high since the boat sailed so well with just the keels. It did point higher with the board down.
She was a great sailing boat, we were first multihull in several cruiser's regattas, and first overall at the Staniel Cay (Bahamas) New Years day Cruisers Regatta one year.
One advantage of this design was the great galley space in the port hull afforded by having only one board.
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Old 04-02-2016, 06:52   #9
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Here's a few recent tracks on our L400 for some actual data. Of course conditions change a bit between the various days so I'll put an average for each track to give you an idea. The biggest factor is current against in most cases, followed by seastate. We generally find we keep pace with most other similar sized yachts sailing to wind, but they really are the minority as most seem to be able to sail upwind at better angles with just the main up..
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BVIs. Perfect sailing conditions15kt, flattish water and .5kt current against, av. Boat speed 7.5kt
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Martinique. Winds ranging from 15-20, mostly into small short period swells wrapping around the island. Enough to slow progress occasionally coming off a wave. Around 2kt current against. AV boat speed 6.5kt
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3 tracks at Antigua. All similar conditions 1-2m waves, more comfortable a couple of miles out, always 1-2kt current, around 20kt wind. AV speed 7kt
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Grenada-ronde 15kt, 2m rolling swell, .5-1kt current at 60 degrees. AV speed 6.5kt, dropped the jib and motorsailed the last couple of miles to arrive by sunset. (Saved about 15minutes of sailing)

(Wind speeds are TWS, boat speeds SOG)
Adverse current has the biggest effect but we rarely plan our passages around the best times to sail. Recently we tacked upwind along the south coast of Grenada with a buddy boat and when we arrived our buddy's asked us why we picked the worst possible current to sail against that week 🙈
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Old 04-02-2016, 08:35   #10
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychfeld View Post
I'm narrowing down my choice of a cat to a few types that offer, in general, more comfort than performance especially regarding sailing to windward.

I'm wondering what experience some of you may have regarding performance of these types of boats especially with respect to going upwind.

In general I've ruled out the daggerboard boats as I will be living aboard and would prefer a roomier home. If the performance upwind is so terrible that it's nearly impossible to go upwind I might amend my criteria to go after the more performance crafts with daggerboards like outremers, schionnings, catanas etc.

The boats I am currently considering include the Lagoon 400s, Leopards 39-40, F/P Liparis.

I'd love to hear from those of you with hands on experience of those three boats which one might offer the better upwind performance as a general rule.

Thank you kindly!
Hello there

I have a Leopard 42 which I purchased in May 2014 after quite a bit of research.

I have been a longtime singlehuller and wanted comfort, space, speed, pointability etcetera, in any multihull, all the things that we all desire. I found that in the Leopard and after many cruises, have never found the slight lack of pointing into the wind a problem, for it is offset by the speed and comfort and space.

I looked at as many different marques of cat on three continents, and the only one that had that wow factor was the Leopard, and I chose the 42 as it fitted in with my budget, just!

Of course there have been problems, but I have yet to own a boat of any sort that didn't have them.

I hope this might answer any question, but if you need more info, please ask.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:11   #11
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychfeld View Post
I'm narrowing down my choice of a cat to a few types that offer, in general, more comfort than performance especially regarding sailing to windward.

I'm wondering what experience some of you may have regarding performance of these types of boats especially with respect to going upwind.

In general I've ruled out the daggerboard boats as I will be living aboard and would prefer a roomier home. If the performance upwind is so terrible that it's nearly impossible to go upwind I might amend my criteria to go after the more performance crafts with daggerboards like outremers, schionnings, catanas etc.

The boats I am currently considering include the Lagoon 400s, Leopards 39-40, F/P Liparis.

I'd love to hear from those of you with hands on experience of those three boats which one might offer the better upwind performance as a general rule.

Thank you kindly!


The difference between cats loaded up for serious cruising is minor! You got to know yoyr purpose for your cat, you want to cruise or race? There are other much more important aspects and specs of the different cats that are very important to yoyr particular like.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:59   #12
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Have sailed a lot of different Lagoons, Leopards, and FP's (just older model FPs though). All have reasonable (at least 45 AWA) windward performance for a cruising boat. The FPs are lighter built and thus perform a little better in general.

Bashing to windward with significant seas/chop is the worst case for most multils. You will lose boat speed and pointing more so than would a similar LOA mono of moderate to heavy displacement and full draft. Best comparison to mono in this scenario might be a shoal draft, relatively light, mono.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:40   #13
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

In 2015 spent about a month each on a 2014 Catana 42, 2015 Lipari and a 1990 Shuttleworth 44. The Catana has 2 daggerboards and the Shuttleworth has one. None on the Lipari.

The Catana pointed better, often getting AWA better than 40, but the daggerboards are not to be used at speeds over about 5 knots. It is a very comfortable boat, even with a bit of space taken away by the daggerboards.

Sailed the Lipari from France to the BVIs in October. It pointed well, not quite as well as the Catana. But we were mostly sailing downwind, except across Bay of Biscaye. I like the helm layout better on this vs the Catana.

The Shuttelworth had worse slamming problems than the others. An older boat and I did not like the down galley configuration. Pointing was not great but the sails were in really bad shape. Also, getting from the cockpit to the rear steps or dinghy was difficult.

Overall, I liked the Catana best. Great balance of sailing/comfort/cruising. And the owners may put it up for sale. They are in the Caribbean (just crossed from Canaries) and will decide soon. Great boat, very well maintained. Great people too. Check out their blog if interested. Miss Catana

Another super boat is Catapulte, an Absolu 50. I did not get a chance to sail but was docked next to it for 4 days on Funchal. Eric, the owner said "If I am not sailing the same speed as the wind, I know my sails are not trimmed right." (up to about 18 kn, and not dead downwind of course) Double daggerboards, rotating mast, carbon reinforced hull. Light and points really well. A bit spartan inside but tons of space. They did Cape Verde to Martinique in 13 days.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:41   #14
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Here is a Lagoon 421 fully loaded with fuel (178 gal), water (184+ gal) and provisions for 8 people for a week. I am not performance oriented, so I do not know whether it is good performance or not. Good enough for me. Top instrument shows true wind speed and angle (8.4 kts, <45), middle one shows apparent wind angle (30) and SOG (5.3kts). Make your own conclusions, just my 2 cents.
(Sorry about low quality of a photo, it is a snapshot from a video).
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:08   #15
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Originally Posted by Looking4Neptune View Post
Another super boat is Catapulte, an Absolu 50. I did not get a chance to sail but was docked next to it for 4 days on Funchal. Eric, the owner said "If I am not sailing the same speed as the wind, I know my sails are not trimmed right." (up to about 18 kn, and not dead downwind of course) Double daggerboards, rotating mast, carbon reinforced hull. Light and points really well. A bit spartan inside but tons of space. They did Cape Verde to Martinique in 13 days.

Wow. Those absolu50's are really nice! Here is the manufacturers link: .: Absolu50 :.

As you said, a little spartan inside, but ohh so nice. Their 50.2 on the drawing board looks really sweet.

I didn't notice pricing.
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