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Old 07-02-2016, 00:00   #61
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
What confused me is that this thread was discussing sailing upwind and then reaching or broad reaching tactics came into the discussion with little transition. All of us have different tricks for better boat speed at wider angles, the real tough part is upwind. That's really where your boat should excel past fixed keel boats.
Yeah sorry Dave my fault I guess - Factor and I both mentioned that board position wasnt just about boat speed when it came up and that it possibly wasnt well understood. I know i didnt really get it till i started sailing a board cat full time and playing around.

Yes we are talking about reaching but a close reach on the board positioning. To put it another way boards let you sail at your boats sweet spot AWA more often.

When close hauled the boards fully down add about 8 to 10 degrees better leeway vs a mini keel best I can work out but again thats not the full story as it means to sail to the same waypoint that a keel cat is pointing at close hauled the board cat might be sailing at more like 40 to 45 AWA.

When are you back in Marmaris BTW? Maybe we could have a sail on the bay
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Old 07-02-2016, 06:39   #62
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

May 12th We will probably head to Rodos around the 17th.

What I really want to do is some kiteboarding. I finally got up for a distance in Hawaii but it's just a beginning. I'm planning on heading back to Paros for some more lessons right away and spending the balance of the summer practicing.

Back to sailing to windward - always an interesting discussion because it's so important, I did learn a few things from Yeloya at the end of the summer. He and Ziya took out Palarran and eeked about 5 more degree's upwind then I had been able to do because of trimming. I honestly didn't realize you could make winches pull lines that tight - holy crap !! They also found the cut of my self tacking jib was wrong and didn't allow about 1/4th of the sail to trim. You know how on the clew there is a bracket where you can adjust the jib sheet location up. Mine didn't have one but needed it.

I think good sails make a huge difference and if the budget allows I'll look at replacing mine.
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Old 07-02-2016, 14:07   #63
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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I think good sails make a huge difference
Amen to that brother.
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Old 07-02-2016, 14:27   #64
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Yeah!


Plenty of help fitting them:





First sail:


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Old 07-02-2016, 14:48   #65
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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The most positive thing I've seen you say about multihulls! Well done! Some cat's might sail to windward better than some mono's from 200 years ago! (But not all of them of course).

Yeah, I can see you're a real fan....

...
That was not me that made that comparison but a cat owner. Actually I was saying that they sail to the wind far better than that, but it seems that you see bias in anything I say
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Old 07-02-2016, 14:49   #66
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
May 12th We will probably head to Rodos around the 17th.

What I really want to do is some kiteboarding. I finally got up for a distance in Hawaii but it's just a beginning. I'm planning on heading back to Paros for some more lessons right away and spending the balance of the summer practicing.

Back to sailing to windward - always an interesting discussion because it's so important, I did learn a few things from Yeloya at the end of the summer. He and Ziya took out Palarran and eeked about 5 more degree's upwind then I had been able to do because of trimming. I honestly didn't realize you could make winches pull lines that tight - holy crap !! They also found the cut of my self tacking jib was wrong and didn't allow about 1/4th of the sail to trim. You know how on the clew there is a bracket where you can adjust the jib sheet location up. Mine didn't have one but needed it.

I think good sails make a huge difference and if the budget allows I'll look at replacing mine.
Taking out the odd spare generator may help too

Be there about the same time and will have the kite gear so giddy up! Likewise Paros looking like a place ill spend a fair bit of time this year. Theres not really that many places where you can have a safe anchorage and decent onshore winds but Paros is one of em.
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Old 07-02-2016, 14:52   #67
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Yeah!


Plenty of help fitting them:





First sail:


You look pretty powered up in some light air there mate!

So thats DCX laminate right?
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Old 08-02-2016, 05:05   #68
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Long ago, I've sailed a Salina 48 with standard dacron sails in relatively good shape; I wasn't impressed at all. Then, the owner has decided to change the sails with great looking high tech sails and I've sailed her again. I was expecting an improvement but to my surprise, the difference was substantial, both in terms of speed and the AWA angle..


Secondly, we are mostly referring to AWA and wind strength but the sea state (the length and height of waves) is the first consideration when one sails upwind with a cat. The same is valid for the mono's as well but waves' effect is much more accentuated on the cats. (lighter displacement, no deep and heavy keel and the same wave hitting more than once; the outside and inner hull twice + bridge deck if not high enough..)
The situation gets worse as the waves are steeper and the wind lighter..The dagger boards (if any..) in such conditions help a lot.
The trim of the main sail is crucial and is quite different than the one for the main of a monohull. Here, rotative masts pay off dividents, even tough I am not convinced that one needs to have this feature unless you are racing.


Cheers


Yeloya
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Old 08-02-2016, 06:27   #69
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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...

Secondly, we are mostly referring to AWA and wind strength but the sea state (the length and height of waves) is the first consideration when one sails upwind with a cat. The same is valid for the mono's as well but waves' effect is much more accentuated on the cats. (lighter displacement, no deep and heavy keel and the same wave hitting more than once; the outside and inner hull twice + bridge deck if not high enough..)
The situation gets worse as the waves are steeper and the wind lighter..
...Cheers
Yeloya
I am interested in boat design and I have been looking to that, meaning the effect of the waves on boats upwind (wave drag), comparing results on racing with boats with different kinds of hulls and my observations coincide with what you say:
On Transats it is very interesting to compare the performances of 50ft top racing trimarams with the one of Top Open'60s on transats. The difference is not much and with good wind and normal sea conditions but when the sea gets stormy the Open 60's have the upper hand and go away quickly, specially if upwind sailing is involved.

Regarding wave drag we can see that monohull cruiser racers based on open boats (very beamy boats), on flat seas can have an almost similar performance upwind as a narrower traditional IRC cruiser racer. Like a cat they don't point as high but can get (with decent wind) more speed on a more open course and the VMG is not very different.

Things change completely when waves are involved and as you say the steeper and small period ones are the worse, specially if the size is significant (not really big). On those conditions the narrower IRC type of cruiser racer will not only point higher as it can go faster than the Open type of boat and be much faster regarding VMG.

As you pointed out a similar thing happens with multihulls regarding wave drag.
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Old 08-02-2016, 07:25   #70
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Hi Polux,


I have to add that my comments on monohulls are concerning the "new" generation mass production, beamy, high deck, short keel, charter oriented ones. They are terrible upwind, particularly if they carry a furling main.. I have even seen some mono's giving higher leeway than any catamaran. (50 ft, furling and in very bad shape mainsail + deck salon, famous french brand. Cannot tell you more, I am sure you understood which brand she was..) I have also sailed a Farr 72 and a Farr 50 open all carbon.. This latter was so keen to move upwind that you cannot anchor from the bow but only from aft. (otherwise, with the lightest wind the boat tends to move forward and towards the anchor, funny..)
On the other hand, with a Gunboat we pointed 22-24 degrees AWA making 9 kts at 20 kts true in flat water, double digit as as soon as you ease couple of degrees more..

All what I am trying to say is that , it's very difficult to compare boats apple to apple whether it's a multi or mono, more so when it comes to compare mono to cat. Small changes could make huge differences.

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:39   #71
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Hi Polux,


I have to add that my comments on monohulls are concerning the "new" generation mass production, beamy, high deck, short keel, charter oriented ones. They are terrible upwind, particularly if they carry a furling main.. I have even seen some mono's giving higher leeway than any catamaran. (50 ft, furling and in very bad shape mainsail + deck salon, famous french brand. Cannot tell you more, I am sure you understood which brand she was..) I have also sailed a Farr 72 and a Farr 50 open all carbon.. This latter was so keen to move upwind that you cannot anchor from the bow but only from aft. (otherwise, with the lightest wind the boat tends to move forward and towards the anchor, funny..)
On the other hand, with a Gunboat we pointed 22-24 degrees AWA making 9 kts at 20 kts true in flat water, double digit as as soon as you ease couple of degrees more..

All what I am trying to say is that , it's very difficult to compare boats apple to apple whether it's a multi or mono, more so when it comes to compare mono to cat. Small changes could make huge differences.

Cheers

Yeloya
I agree with what you say but what I was trying point is what you have said already: that one thing is to go upwind in flat water other thing against a nasty see and in that case multihulls and beamy type open hull monohulls lose a lot more than narrow monohulls with deep keel, that are upwind optimized. Just adding to the multihulls the Open type hull monohulls.

I take the opportunity to correct this phrase on my anterior post. It missed me a word and the sense is not the same:

"The difference is not much and with good wind and normal sea conditions multi50 trimarans are faster but when the sea gets stormy the Open 60's have the upper hand and go away quickly, specially if upwind sailing is involved."
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:05   #72
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

I will keep asking till I get an answer, Polux, do you have any actual experience on any multihull and if so what type and where. Real actual experience, not internet dreaming.

And as for this:
Quote:
"The difference is not much and with good wind and normal sea conditions multi50 trimarans are faster but when the sea gets stormy the Open 60's have the upper hand and go away quickly,
And yet trimarans round the world in the roaring 40s and furious 50s substantially faster than any mono? Some one should tell them they aren't supposed to do that
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:34   #73
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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I will keep asking till I get an answer, Polux, do you have any actual experience on any multihull and if so what type and where. Real actual experience, not internet dreaming.

And as for this:
And yet trimarans round the world in the roaring 40s and furious 50s substantially faster than any mono? Some one should tell them they aren't supposed to do that

Yes, that are two facts and they are not contradictory. I was talking about 50ftmulti, 50ft trimarans and you don't see them circumnavigating much less sailing on the roaring 50's. They are fragile boats and relatively easy to capsize to a small mistake, even on not bad weather.

On bad weather they are extremely difficult boats to sail and for several times transats have to be postponed because the weather was to severe for them (on the Biscay).

100 or 120ft racing trimarans, the ones that sail the world chasing records on the roaring 40's have not a problem with bad weather. Their size and much superior stability allows them to pass the waves, even in a storm with sureness and without problems.

The problem regarding racing monohulls, the big loss of speed and even seaworthiness happens with smaller boats. The limit regards a superior seaworthiness seems to be 70ft boats.

This 70fer trimarans substituted the older 60fters after most of them having capsized in a transat some years ago due only to the force of the wind on the naked masts. this extra 10ft seems to have allowed a substantial benefice in seaworthiness. Sometimes they capsize but only when pushed too hard, or with really bad luck regarding a huge gust. At least to my knowledge they never capsized with the force of the wind on the masts alone, like the previous Open 60.

Saying all that I do love Multi 50 and consider it one of the most spectacular classes exactly by the great difficulty in sailing them at 100%. That makes the sailor more than the boat the one that wins races. They are not only easy to capsize (and they do capsize frequently in races) as they have to be sailed with care in bad weather not only due to the capsize risk but also not to break the boats (they break a lot).

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Old 08-02-2016, 14:09   #74
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Obviously no actual experience with multis except what he's gained in his armchair.


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Old 08-02-2016, 14:33   #75
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Yes. Probably the definitive "armchair expert".


He's certainly in the right place.
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