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Old 05-02-2016, 09:40   #31
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Polux :-) As far as putting numbers to anything I can't, it's just a feeling. I'm not the personality that pays that much attention, I'm more of a destination kind of guy, pick my weather to be reaching most of the time and if the wind goes to the nose or too light I motor (should that be in sailors confessional?) :-)

Bringing the Catana down from South Carolina to Florida I just liked the way she sailed for a cat. She was fast, solid and comfortable. We spent months aboard her in the Bahamas and my biggest gripe was the size of the heads :-) (along with lack of rub rails which I like.) The boards did clunk at anchor but a well placed dive fin did the trick.

Windward performance, she would sheet in and go with a minimum of fuss. The 55' would have benefited from a larger headsail as opposed to the self tacking jib she was wearing but that option was not available. The owner of her was a numbers guy and we worked her well to get her moving upwind. That being said the boat always felt "tight" hard on the wind and once we let her off 10-15 degrees she would lighten up a bit and move. Doing a 1000 miles of that would not be appealing personally.

As far as numbers go that's more for the Sailing Anarchy site. I'm not that guy and have nothing against that guy, it's just not me. There is a challenge to upwind sailing and there are personalities that really enjoy it, that's great and with a nod to 44' Cruisingcat I would make a slight upgrade from cruiser to sailor :-)

We're back on a fractional rigged monohull now and I will say over all as far as sailing goes she is much more fun. What I loved about the cat was the whole package. She moved well under power and sail and had great range under power. Ours was a 50' designed by Alexanders Yacht Design and built in Holland. At sea she was very stable and comfortable. The other thing was the draft, we were able to anchor anywhere particularly when an anchorage was crowded we could generally tuck in close and stay out of the way.

Well I better get to work. This is always more interesting however :-) Have a great day all.
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:44   #32
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Re: Lagoon 440 and Jeanneau 43 sailing to Wind

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Originally Posted by Wellington View Post
Cat vs mono of +/- similar size sailing to wind: here's my two cents, based on about 5 days of tacking between Panama and the Galapagos.

We left Las Perlas together with the Jeanneau 43. Her captain was an experienced sailor who loved to hand steer and fine tune his sails. Just a couple on board the Jeanneau, when we had stocked on everything for the five of us (believing that food, diesel, etc would be twice as expensive in French Polynesia - which turned out to be a big mistake, food is way better and about the same price in FP if you don't indulge in wine, beer, and imported French cheese). We left with 1800 liters of water (including 600 liters of drinking water in 5-liter bottles), 850 liters of diesel + gasoline, enough cooking gas for 5 months, about 300 kgs of dry foods and cans, 300 cans of beer, 40 bottles of wine, etc. In 4 years we have never been as heavy as during that crossing.

Typically, you tack the first 2/3 or 3/4 of the way to the Galapagos, as the wind comes from the SW, exactly where you want to go. We assumed that the Jeanneau would be faster and would point much better than us in these conditions, especially as it was a model with a deep keel. We left the Gulf of Panama with about 15 knots, and the wind rose to 30-35 knots in the next few days. We said goodbye, trusting that they would arrive to the Galapagos at least a day before us.

The Jeanneau 43 would indeed point 5-10 degrees better than us, but we were faster. As a result, we stayed within radio contact (15-20 NM) for 5 days. As we approached the coast of Ecuador, the wind started to calm down a bit and to come a bit more from the SSW, then more and more South as we were approaching the Galapagos. As the difference in speed between us became greater, we lost radio contact but kept in touch through satellite phone. On day 7 we were already 100 NM ahead of them. We arrived in Isabella after 8 days, they arrived 30 hours after us.

Sailing against the wind (between 15 and 35 knots) our full-to-the-brim Lagoon 440 managed to keep up for 5 days with a +/- similar size monohull.
Your boat was longer.... Jeanneau's aren't good windward mono's..... the guy must have been a terrible sailor, whereas you are a genius..... you must have had current with you.... I'm sure Pollux will fill in the excuses.. er details.
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Old 05-02-2016, 13:06   #33
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Re: Lagoon 440 and Jeanneau 43 sailing to Wind

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Your boat was longer.... Jeanneau's aren't good windward mono's..... the guy must have been a terrible sailor, whereas you are a genius..... you must have had current with you.... I'm sure Pollux will fill in the excuses.. er details.
maybe he is paid to promote monohulls.

or maybe girlfriend left him for condo cat guy.
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Old 05-02-2016, 13:29   #34
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Re: Lagoon 440 and Jeanneau 43 sailing to Wind

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maybe he is paid to promote monohulls.

or maybe girlfriend left him for condo cat guy.
LOL! No no! He's totally unbiased! He'll tell you that constantly, while he's here in the multihull forum, endlessly sniping at multihulls.
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Old 05-02-2016, 13:29   #35
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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That is not bad at all for that type of boat
Have you sailed that type of boat - or indeed any of the designs mentioned here?
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:12   #36
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

I think it's true that if I really want to go fast and tight to windward, I'd need a Maxi, but not just any Maxi. I'm thinking Wild Oats IX (narrow beam, several foils, hydraulic canting keel, aerodynamic mast, and a crew of 12). I'd have Comanche on hold for the fast down wind legs, or perhaps a Volvo 70.

But given my budgetary constraints, I have to compromise. Gee, I'd like a Porsche GT3 too as I've read that they are about as good as a road car can be. That's as long as you don't want to go off road, carry more than one passenger, be comfortable on regular roads, keep your licence, keep the wife, carry a briefcase, save the planet, be fuel conscious, and have the finances to buy and maintain one. (Having raced Porsches in the past, I realized I didn't).

Sorry, I've digressed from topic....

So the point is, and I maintain, that production cats can and do sail to windward. Some better than others for sure. Some are affected more by sea-state. To argue otherwise is just ridiculous. Some owners simply choose not to for the comfort of their crew. Some may not fully appreciate how to optimally trim the boat, or fail to optimize for VMG. Of course there will be boats, whether mono or cat, that by design will be better, with a limited number that will be much better. That will come with a compromise or two, that often the owner is happy to accept as part of the package. Some don't even see this as a "cost" or issue. And good for them. Personally, I'd like a Schionning G1800 in light ship spec, but that would cost at least 4 times my current outlay.

I'm reminded of a thread I started in 2014 on this topic. I was actually challenging the forum to put up some data to back the bravado. In fact, only Monte (thank you) and I, made good in providing hard evidence, much in the same way as he has done in this thread. Further, although the graphs that I showed demonstrated 90 degree tack angles in 0.5-1.0 m short chop, I too, have witnessed worse, like Monte's, when the sea state intermittently slows the boat and thus generates increased leeway. This might end up being 100 to 110 degrees say in a 2-3m steep swell, even worse if you face an adverse current as well. Still, these same adverse forces will also degrade the more capable boat too, possibly by a similar increment.

Anyway, can we at least agree, that cats perform better to windward than square riggers, and house boats. Then I'll be happy and will remain quietly content with my boat's (small 'p") performance.

I direct you to the link below for interest sake....

Windward Performance - Genuine Tack Angles
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:28   #37
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

I agree with 2wind, one more and we have a quorum :-)
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:38   #38
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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In December, in a 48 hour period I sailed 340NM across the Tasman sea (Goldcoast seaway to Middleton Reef) making 100 degrees in a strong southeasterly of between 25-35kts.
Like Monte, my (our) experience seems discordant to the views and expectations of many forum experts who repeatedly state that these sort of boats do not sail to windward.
Suffice to say, you need to know how to trim, have good sails and work to keep the boat lighter. That being said, we had full fuel (625 litres), full water (900litres) and provisions for 6 X 14 days).
If the question relates to comfort, then I would say that it's never comfortable going to windward then the wind is up and has been for days irrespective of what vessel you are on. Did we sleep well, yes. Did we eat well, you bet. Did we drink champagne from tall flutes each evening - always!
Rent, try, experience, and then form your own views.

I love Cats for cruising due to comfort, space, low draft and speed.

Pretty sure sailing at 100 degrees to the wind is not sailing into the wind.

I understand the conditions were biggish but the average mono would achieve something around 40 degrees in such conditions admittedly it would not be too comfortable and you would be probably sailing more off the wind.... a substantial difference in pointing abilities.
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Old 05-02-2016, 19:47   #39
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Fairly sure he was saying tacking angles were 100 degrees. So 50 degrees off the wind.

I'm even more sure he knows the definition of sailing to windward.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:11   #40
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Fairly sure he was saying tacking angles were 100 degrees. So 50 degrees off the wind.

I'm even more sure he knows the definition of sailing to windward.
Thanks for your kind and prompt defence of my statement.

To clariy: I was sailing at a compass bearing of 100 degrees (that's 10 degrees south of east) into a southeaster (that would be 135 degrees). So the TWA was 45 degrees, with an AWA of 35 degrees for best VMG of 5.3 kts at a boat speed of 7.5 kts in 25kts of TWS. Although I can sail to a AWA of 30 degrees, the VMG is slower owing to lower boat speed, leeway and the slow correction of the AP when wind and wave action periodically result in a too high angle stalling the genoa.

Hope that helps.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:27   #41
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Absolutely. the ability to increase apparent wind and induce leeway to get a better VMG is often overlooked and also often not understood.
Would you mind explaining it to me? The part about inducing leeway. I'm pretty sure I understand apparent wind and VMG but maybe not the concept of making your boat have worse leeway to increase VMG.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:31   #42
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Thanks for your kind and prompt defence of my statement.

To clariy: I was sailing at a compass bearing of 100 degrees (that's 10 degrees south of east) into a southeaster (that would be 135 degrees). So the TWA was 45 degrees, with an AWA of 35 degrees for best VMG of 5.3 kts at a boat speed of 7.5 kts in 25kts of TWS. Although I can sail to a AWA of 30 degrees, the VMG is slower owing to lower boat speed, leeway and the slow correction of the AP when wind and wave action periodically result in a too high angle stalling the genoa.

Hope that helps.
in these conditions apparent wind is 30.7 kn. For my boat, I need to put 1 reef in main and jib.

Were you sailing according to lagoon 44 reefing numbers ?

I would probably run with 2 reefs in main and jib in such conditions to minimise stress levels.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:36   #43
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

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Would you mind explaining it to me? The part about inducing leeway. I'm pretty sure I understand apparent wind and VMG but maybe not the concept of making your boat have worse leeway to increase VMG.

When sailing off the wind, sliding sideways to the wp will allow you to point higher, increasing apparent wind. I.e, inducing 10 degrees leeway by raising boards can allow you to point 10 degrees higher which will likely be faster on most points of sail from a broad reach to beam reach.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:50   #44
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

2wind, it was the "making" 100 degrees that fooled me. Haven't heard that usage before. That and a statement of sailing to windward for hundreds of miles by someone caused false conclusion on my part. Always learning.

Enjoy the discussions about the dynamics of sailing.

Now got to burn some brain calories pondering Monte's post.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:51   #45
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Re: Cats Sailing to Wind

Hi, Monte,

I disagree fundamentally about the ability to sail better by "sliding sideways". You increase the drag of the hulls and you don't gain anything in the wind direction, except that you are turning your forestay a bit to windward, which might give you a tiny bit of additional exposed genoa.

Specifically the leeward airstream, which we multihullers so love and which makes us gybe downwind, won't happen because you are just turning the boat slightly while maintaining course.

...not that I have tried it, my boat comes with fixed keels...

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