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Old 10-03-2006, 18:36   #31
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Joli, for sure I would never sail anywhere at anytime with someone as uniformed yet as opinionated as you.

No fact will impress you unless it supports the position you have already taken.

So sail wherever you want with whatever you want. I just can't figure out why you are even looking at a multihull thread. Unless it is you have a driving need to disseminate misinformation.
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Old 10-03-2006, 18:54   #32
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if you read the article it says raceing not cruiseing....jt
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Old 10-03-2006, 19:06   #33
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Again the question: Is a Cat better for Long Distance sailing or a traditional sail boat?

And my final note: Here is what insurance underwriters say:

"· Notwithstanding their growing popularity, catamarans are more exposed to loss than monohulls. Experience indicates that the catamaran is more likely to sustain a lightning strike; the catamaran is more exposed to dismasting than other vessels; the beam of the catamaran makes secure mooring more difficult to obtain; catamarans present a significant capsizing risk. (Any vessel with an escape hatch in the hull bottom should be viewed with concern.); the stability of the catamaran makes it popular with those with less than extensive seagoing skills; ad infinitum"

Do what you want. I answered the question asked.

Fair winds,

Bryan
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Old 10-03-2006, 19:42   #34
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Unhappy

Ummm... Joli, did you see this further on down the page you posted earlier. Kind of interesting, considering they were cruising.... not racing.

http://www.allianz-yachts.com/info/maxicapsize
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Old 10-03-2006, 19:53   #35
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Whats going on here

Hey all I said to cavecreature was,"The only thing I know is that when multis capsize they don't right themselves"I didn't mean to start a **** fight!!! Lets start again! The only thing I know is Monos cost less.
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Old 10-03-2006, 20:03   #36
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Talking

It's funny... this is always a dangerous area to keep on the high road. I've been a mulihuller all my 40 years and have been 'round this one since I built my first proa at 12 yrs old. On another forum, this same question was asked by an unsuspecting member.... boy, what a "**** fight" that one turned into as well!

Do your homework, get out on as many boats as you can, find what you like, and go for it! That is all you can do...... good luck!

Joli... no disrespect....

Peace.
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Old 10-03-2006, 20:27   #37
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fhrussell,If ya don't mind me asking,"what is a proa?"As Im not a long time sailor person Im just wondering,and asking!mudnut
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Old 10-03-2006, 20:31   #38
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Mudnut.

This'll give ya an idea what a "Proa," looks like.


http://www.harryproa.com/
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Old 10-03-2006, 20:35   #39
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I am not being nitpicky just want to set the story straight. The story you related about the cat was actually a 38 foot trimaran the Rose Noelle. The owner designed it and built it himself. From the pictures I have seen of the boat he did a pretty good job. They were flipped by a rogue wave in winds of 60 knots and drifted for about 120 days and eventually drifted back to New Zealand. The boat held together until it broke up after coming ashore. There were three people aboard and they were in such good shape that the authorities suspected a hoax until shown the wreckage of the boat. One of the crew was from the U.S. and lived in my neighborhood. To me this story validates the whole multihull design concept. If they had been aboard a 38 foot monohull it is probable that they would have capsized and possibly sunk.Would they have survived 120 days in a liferaft? It has been done a few times but the result is not pretty.
Monohulls sink and multihulls flip, both are rare occurances. With the racing crowd this may happen more often but in most cases the only thing these boats have in common with the cruising boats is the number of hulls. I am more comfortable with a bouyant mothership that will sustain me no matter what happens, a liferaft has no appeal to me. Others may feel differant, it's just a choice you make.

To no one in particular,
I am sick of this idiotic argument just be happy with the choice you made and stop pissing and moaning about some one elses choice.

To Joli
I had a similar experience off of New Jersey in my 40 foot trimaran. After midnite we got hit by a fast moving thunderstorm and took a 50 knot gust with a full main up. We shot off like a bat out of hell it was quite amazing, never came close to flipping. I had only owned the boat for about a week at the time.
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Old 10-03-2006, 22:57   #40
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Let's not confuse debate with a shitfight. Debate is good - it allows those with opposite views to state their opinions and defend their theses in an open forum. Our parliamentary system is supposedly based on the assumption that the truth will eventually be revealed by debate. And where there is no clear truth, then at least those who participate or spectate will increase their knowledge about the subject.

Bryan - I don't understand your second link; it seems to support my argument, not yours. For instance:

QUOTE"The bump in the Mira's stability curve shows, quite dramatically, how much extra large angle stability can be gained. Also shown is the well known curve from the 1979 Fastnet Race report of the 30 ft Grymalkin, which capsized in the race and stayed inverted for several minutes with the result that several crew lost their lives. Since Gymalkin and Mira have very similar displacements, sail areas and waterline lengths, a direct comparison of their stabilities is reasonable. As you can see, the Mira has considerably more dynamic stability (the area under the curve is obviously more) while its static stability is only less than Grymalkin's at over 70 degrees or more. From practical experience we know that it is virtually impossible to heel a cat to this sort of angle, so I would always prefer to be in a cat than in a monohull.

This graph also shows that a Mira is stable to about 95 degrees of heel (depending on loading), whereas many offshore monohulls are only stable to about 105 degrees. The recent race results (Vende Globe, Around Alone etc) as well as cruiser disasters have shown that its not only multihulls that have stability problems.

Before concluding this series of articles I must mention a bit of a cross over between theory and practice.

Some years ago the Wolfson Unit at Southampton University conducted some model tests in their wave tank of both a power cat and a conventional deep V power boat to see which was the more stable in waves. People accept that a modern powerboat, like a Princess or Bayliner does not capsize, yet the test showed how EASY it was for a model powerboat to get rolled over by even relatively small waves. In comparison, NOTHING the Wolfson Unit could do would make the powercat capsize! Believe me, they tried everything!"UNQUOTE

Let's summarize here - monohull capsizes killing several crew and power multi model could not be made to capsize in a wave tank. Your point again was what?

Next point - I wouldn't base choosing a boat for circumnavigating based on the insurance industry's biases.

The point regarding crew fatigue - I would presume from what I've read about them, that sailing in a cat is not so fatiguing. Whereas being heeled over for a couple of weeks on a cross pacific slog would be very tiring. Now you're so tired by the time you get within landfall that you run aground on a reef and watch your family perish. I give my family better odds on the overturned cat thank you.

Kevin
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:49   #41
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Thx for the correction on my story. I watched it a long while ago and couldnt find it on the internet the other day. Dosnt make much difference anyhow... points still hold the same. Peace.
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Old 11-03-2006, 13:28   #42
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Mudnut, Here's the mother of proa links

http://www.wingo.com/proa/links.html

Proas were likely the first ocean-going vessels on earth...(not my opinion...documented, but always arguable fact.)

Anyway, simply they are 2/3 a trimaran. Also, a true 'shunting proa', as opposed to a 'tacking proa', has its centerline placed on longitude, not lattitudenally(sp?). It's a very interesting way to think of a sailing vessel. The asymetry of the main hull is intentional and gave lift to windward or at least provided lateral resistance. And, if you have read Marchaj's work, you'll find that one of the most effective, efficient rigs known to man is the crab-claw sail.... It works on vector forces, similar to a hang glider.

Russell Brown's (Jim Brown's son) proas have been very successful and are beautiful! Rob Denney (Harry Proa) in New Zealand, is taking things to a new level with great success also.

Most sailing speed records have been set by a proa or a form of proa.
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Old 11-03-2006, 15:03   #43
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I am also quite impressed with Russ Brown's work. Have you seen the articles in Wooden Boat and Cruising World. He was on the cover along with one of his proas of Wooden Boat quite a few years ago. It also featured a expansive article about him and his boats. The Cruising World article was more recent and was about a trip to French Polynesia with Steve Callahan.
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Old 11-03-2006, 15:48   #44
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Hi Steve,
Yes! Absolutley! I have seen those articles. Actually, I have been up close to two of the boats. They are real works of art...inside and out. I was in Washington last year and tried tracking Russell down. Unfortunatley, he was away at the time but a buddy of his told me where Jzero was moored, drove out there and got a ride in a row boat to get a closer look. Also, came across Kaouri near Marblehead by chance. Was talking to Jim Brown this morning and he's digging up the number of Kaori's owner... I'll be up that way next week.
Love those proas and Denney's as well.....
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Old 12-03-2006, 10:43   #45
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Why is it that everytime we start a discussion about benefits of a multihull versus mono for long distance work, somebody comes out of the woodwork and resurrects that hoary old pack of lies about multihull capsizes.

within design circles, it is well known that the cat is only likely to be in trouble from a capsize in breaking seas more than double the height of the boats width, whereas a mono will roll in considerably smaller seas. Most cruising catamaran sailors consider the risk of capsize as being very low indeed, but are aware that the risk of a pitchpole is indeed much higher, hence the desire to slow down in bad conditions.

Multihulls will take action to slow down in these conditions earlier than a mono, because they are moving faster to begin with!

The best discussion of these survival conditions is that provided by Richard Woods (multihull designer) following his experiences recently in his Eclipse, and posted in these fora earlier this year.

Most multihull advocates will readilly admit that a multi requires a bit more looking after in bad conditions, but you also need to realise that the crew are in better condition to do that.
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