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Old 10-03-2006, 08:27   #16
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You decide if they flip.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...howtopic=24488
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Old 10-03-2006, 08:46   #17
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Oh, that's good. A single example and you make a global statement. I think I'll post every mono I hear about being rolled, pitchpoled, sinking, and otherwise meeting with disaster.

No one would ever say sailing is without hazards. On a miles-sailed basis, I would bet the farm that more monos are capsized then multi's. You WILL admit that this one was still floating. And that you have no idea if the crew was taken off, sailed away in a lifeboat or what.

The only information you have is that a multihull was found floating, apparently abandoned, and had been adrift for some time. From that, you seem to conclude that "they all flip". Not a very good post.
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Old 10-03-2006, 09:22   #18
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If the mono people insist on trotting out the old (and untrue) saw about multis capsizing and not righting
Those are your words not mine.

Multi's do capsize. That one went over in 25 knots. The crew was rescued. The boat was abandoned upside down. Interesting that it was later found upright.

This is just a word of caution that if you sail a multi you must be more active when sailing them to avoid this situation. Mono's with lead allow you to let the boat fend for itself to a greater degree. Gravity still works.

Bryan
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Old 10-03-2006, 09:53   #19
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gravity

Unfortunately gravity working on that big piece of lead can also result in very unhappy endings. Recently one of the forum threads talked about a newly retired couple crossing the Atlantic on the start of their circumnavigation in their new top of the line cruising monohull when they hit something - they never found out what as they just had time to get into the liferaft before the boat sank.
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:42   #20
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I'm willing to bet there are more mono's that lose their keels and flip than there are cat's that flip. The fact is cat's have much greater initial stability - it takes a lot more energy to tip one over. Of course, once it approaches 90 degrees, that works against the cat, and over it goes. Mono's are easier to knock down, and although they should theoretically right themselves from 90 degrees or more, how many of them are watertight enough not to flood and sink at that angle of heel?

Kevin
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:52   #21
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Ok so there is no clear winner in the cat vs. mono debate. They both have their pros and cons and both have ardent followers. Yay.
I saw a television program about two years back about two men who set out in their new cat for South America from NZ. Not to far off the north island, they were hit by rouge wave and capsized. Due to the fact that it is hard if not im possible for two people to flip a large cat (I think either 37 or 41'), they had to leave their cat upside down. However, because of the light weight, sturdy construction of the cat it was not dammaged very much and stayed afloat although not the right side up. By diving under the boat and coming up through the hatch they were able to live on the boat taking cover inside it and eating the still dry food and uncontaminated water. They also got stuff from inside and made a good working water trap to collect rain water/dew. They floated for several weeks including through a very large storm, and around a thousand miles, perhaps a bit more. Due to strange weather that year the current that runs up the bottom of NZ (forgive me for not knowing the name) had curved back around far out in the Pacific ocean then in a round about manner came back to the north side of the islands. The boat ran aground back on a small island off the coast and the two men, still in good physical and mental condition, broke into a cottage, ate and drank all night then called for help the next morning.
Ok so here we have it from what I have read from the posts so far. I would be easier to have a mono capsize in a rouge wave. It would also be easier to flip back over and if it was sturdy they would most likely have been able to continue on with thier trip. The cat is harder to flip but once flipped it is hard if not impossible to flip back right. Because of its lighter construction but durability the cat rides higher on the water even when capsized. Due to this, although the cat was upside down it stayed together and provided shelter for them until 1.) help came or 2.) they got back to shore one way or another or 3.) they die.
Altogether, mono flips more but rights more often. If it doesnt get righted people die and thats more likely the end. A cat is significantly more difficult to flip and almost impossible to flip back over. Because of the way it is built it provides a place to stay even if not controlled for a much longer time until you are rescued or get back by yourself. So take your pick... or like both if you want and get the one your pocket book allows.

Feel free to correct me if you see an error but I think I did an alright job. I repeated a bit but hey, I'm not a professional writer.
Cheers!
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Old 10-03-2006, 11:44   #22
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Henry, the boat was a Gozzard 44. It took most of a day to sink. There was some conjecture as to why a more diligent effort was not made to save the boat. I was not there so I do not know. When the rescue boat picked them up hours later most of the freeboard showed.

Lodesman, I would take that bet. Rarely do keels fall of unless it is a very light racing boat. Yep, got pictures of thse also. Daschews report that in the Pacific 6-7% of the multi hull cruising fleet goes missing every year. The mono's fleet does much better than that.

Cave, I think your pretty much on base.

The only thing I am saying about Cat vs Mono is know where ou will sail, understand how you will have to sail it, and pick the boat based on those parameters. If we were only going to sail east coast and carribean it would be on a multi, hands down the best choice. If you want the boat to look after you with a minimum of actively sailing in bad weather and plan on going further, then a mono is the better choice.

The original question was: Is a Cat better for Long Distance sailing or a traditional sail boat? I did not bash multi's but answered the question. Sorry to offend those that wear blinders.



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Old 10-03-2006, 12:47   #23
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Joli once whispered in the wind:
Lodesman, I would take that bet. Rarely do keels fall of unless it is a very light racing boat. Yep, got pictures of thse also. Daschews report that in the Pacific 6-7% of the multi hull cruising fleet goes missing every year. The mono's fleet does much better than that.

The original question was: Is a Cat better for Long Distance sailing or a traditional sail boat? I did not bash multi's but answered the question. Sorry to offend those that wear blinders.
You're on Bryan. Sure it's the race boats that get all the press. I'd also say that most of the cats that flip are very light racing boats. If I'm not mistaken Incinerator was in a race when it flipped. Now the Clipper race fleet are out of the water getting fixed - something like 6 of the 10 boats have loose keels. And Movistar was taking on water through its fancy-pantsy hydraulic keel. These boats were built to sail around the world, made with the strongest most high-tech materials, by the best designers and builders there are. Sure you're not likely to shear off a full keel, but with the all-important performance factor being desired by more and more cruisers, more and more mono's have fin keels. Hit a semi-submerged container broad side and you're going to take off that bolted-on chunk of lead that keeps you upright. You haven't put your missing multihulls into context. Probably less multi's than mono's out sailing - if one multi accounts for 6-7% of the multi-fleet and 10 mono's sinking account for only 5% of the mono-fleet, the percentage looks bad for the multi's but the total number of mono losses is more disturbing. These figures are just to illustrate a point; they aren't an actual tally of boat losses. Maybe you can provide that.

As to your second point - you didn't answer the question; you implied that cat's flip. Sure a very small percentage of cat's flip - usually when they're being driven too hard for the conditions. Mono's flip too. So what? - that doesn't answer the question either. I like cat's, but I like mono's too. Both have strong points and weaknesses. This is where it would help to know Cavecreature's preferences in regards to the type of sailing/cruising he intends - as personal wants, needs and expectations can make all the difference in determining whether a cat or a mono would be best.

Kevin
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Old 10-03-2006, 13:27   #24
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Wooooup there guy's. Lets get some perspective into all this mono vs multi flipping/sinking and what have we.
The main issues I see in all the above are that one example is being used to colour the entire argument. For example, the issue with Movistar isn't that it is a mono hull or that it has a single keel, it is because it has a swing keel that has been built with weight to performance ratio as close to one another as possible and that it is being driven harder than we will ever drive any cruising boat EVER. Even the round the world multi's are different beast compleatly. The round the world racing vessels, no matter what design, are a different bread of animal in design,performace and the way it is sailed. It can't and shouldn't be compared to the standard cruiser and his boat.

OK, so lets look at the argument. A Cat can flip/a mono can sink. I would say both are true, both are rare and both have to be placed in the right context. The context's would be,
1: boat size
2: intended use
3a: sea conditions
3b: weather conditions.

For a designer, all those above are considered in a design. Jeff, maybe you could better explain how you address a design. That would be interesting. So if a boat's design intentions are for harbour crusing, then it is going to lack much of the design features for handling bigger seas and bad weather. One that is designed for off shore work is a different beast again. The same can be said about a mono hull. A mono hull knocked over to 90 degrees is not going to sink. If designed properly, a mono will safely roll right over without it ever sinking. If it sank, it is either a very bad design for the chosen use and should never have been taken offshore, or it was a situation that the crew were not prepared for and the boat had all hatches open. Even a keel droping off, rare but it has happend, most monos hull intergrities are not comprimised and they will remain afloat.
It would have to be argued that in most all situations of rescue at sea, for both mono & multi, the boat has actually survived quite well and the crew should have stayed aboard.

Now here is where the issue should be addressed and I am not sure there are real solid answers.
In severe conditions, a mono can be pitchpoled/rolled, what ever the elements throw at it, and come up floating on top. BUT, it mostly likely will not have a rig left intacked. It is one main reason the hull will pop back up. Anyone that has been rolled with rig remaining will tell you, it takes seemingly a life time to stand back up again.
A multi in the same very severe condition would most likely be rolled and due to it's rig, stay upside down.
But these are extreme and I would say with todays modern weather advances available to us all, very rare these days to be in such a situation. Unless you are down in the southern ocean. But then once again, you choose a very special boat for such a place.
The big issue I see with multi's, is slowing them down when you have to. Maybe some multi experst here can tell me more about that. But all the stories I have heard by multi owners out in a big sea and blow, is that they struggle to slow the boat down and have to tow chutes or drogues much earlier than a mono would.
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Old 10-03-2006, 15:33   #25
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OK, let's go back to the original question:

Is a Cat better for Long Distance sailing or a traditional sail boat?

It depends on where you sail it and how you sail it. You must sail a multi more actively than a mono, period. The room for error is less which in my mind makes them a more dangerous boat. Good Lord, this boat went over in 25 knots. I am happy that the crew was rescued and the boat is salvaged but the truth is a mono might take a knockdown in those conditions, might blow the kite, might loose the rig (doubtfull) but would certainly never roll over. So it would not require a rescue that results in the loss of the boat.

To emphasize my point. Two people died racing a cruising cat in the Port Huron to Mac Double Handed Race two years ago. They flipped it and were trapped below in cold Great Lakes water and drowned, very sad. What led up to this? Sheets were cleated, a front blew through and the boat flipped. How could this happen? The boat was not being actively sailed. No one was there to ease, the end result was a capsize.

So again, would I cruise a multi? Yes, on the East Coast and in the Caribbean. The crew would be my wife and I. If I was going further, it would be a mono.

Cheers

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The end of the story:
http://www.crew.org.nz/page/804/mystery.html
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Old 10-03-2006, 16:58   #26
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Comfort - A CAT IS MY NO 1

Sorry to have my 5c in here as well. I don't know anything about boats. So maybe this will mean nothing to you but what I do know is that I spent 5 days on a cat sailing and 4 hours on a mono haul. The CAT WON!!!!!! Comfort. No holding on for your life while sailing in normal conditions. You can have a normal life on board (as normal as you can get). I loved it. I don't think I want to sail around anywhere in a mono haul. So I suppose I will have to find that guy with the cat to take me with him around the world. Never mind the age as you said earlier. lolol

My friends 49ft cat was built with aluminum and wood inside. It was only sailed by the previous owner and now him. Never any crew or other skipper. It was built to sail around the world. He is the 2nd owner and crossed the atlantic a few times now already and sailed this cat single handed most of the times. His got most of the gadgets you can get on a boat and more.

All I can say is that I prefer a Cat and I'm sure most women would too.

Like anything in life I feel reading these threads is that it is the operater of a vessel/car/computer etc. that can make or brake it. A responsible person will take care and try everything in his/her power to have a safe trip and to make sure all goes well. It doesn't matter if it is a Multi/Mono or whatever a car or even a computer. People say it is the computer that gives problems but it is the operator that is at fault most of the times.... protecting against virus etc...

Well I suppose I've said enough. MULTI haul is for me. I love it.

If I had the money I would have bought my friends seeing that he want's to sell and buy a bigger one. Maybe one day!!

Cheers

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Old 10-03-2006, 17:03   #27
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Granted, Incinerator flipped in 25 knot winds. The swell was reported as confused and there was a wind-driven chop. They were in the middle of a race and probably actively driving it until it flipped with too much sail up and leeward daggerboard down etc etc. The boat in the double handed race wasn't being "actively sailed" - makes you wonder if the crew was keeping any sort of a watch. That's just plain dangerous imo and they could have ended up just as dead if they ran into a laker. So let's stop talking about racing boats and just discuss well-designed cruising multi's that are conservatively sailed. Then there's virtually no chance they will be flipped. Why would you recommend a multi for the Caribbean but not the Pacific?

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Old 10-03-2006, 18:02   #28
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dam guies the boat in thoes pix was striped! besides no modern cruiseing cat has ever flipped, but give me anny boat and i bet under the right conditions i can flip her....jt
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Old 10-03-2006, 18:05   #29
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Hello Kevin,

I'm really not looking for a fight but I totally disagree with your statement "there's virtually no chance they will be flipped". Cruising cats can and do flip.

Your question. Why the East Coast and Caribbean? Those jumps are no more than 100 miles. Crew fatigue is easily managed, you can actively sail the boat (ie ready to ease sheets). Longer jumps mean more watches, tough for a short handed crew. Do you want to make longer jumps? Then the boat must be able to take care of itself when you are too tired to take care of the boat.

Imagine sailing in 20 knots and rounding a bluff. The wind funnels down the hill and hits you with a 60 knot puff. Are you ready on the sheets? If not, the mono is going to lay the spreaders in the water and then recover but the cat may flip. Ready to camp out in the overturned boat till help comes? What if help doesn't come? Ready to watch your family perish?

These are the thoughts that go through my head when I think about the type of boat I want for the conditions I will sail in.

So do cats do longer jumps with short crew? Yes, everyday but I've explained my reason for not wanting to do that.

Again, I am not looking for a fight but only sharing my response to the question "Is a Cat better for Long Distance sailing or a traditional sail boat?".

Pick the right boat for your experience. How you will sail the boat? Where you are going? I like cats and would be happy to cruise one given the right conditions.



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Old 10-03-2006, 18:12   #30
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Quote:
no modern cruiseing cat has ever flipped
CaptJohn, of course they flip. That is why there are hatches in the hull.

B

Try this: http://www.allianz-yachts.com/info/catamarancapsize

Or this: " NO cruising catamaran has EVER capsized when under bare poles. To capsize with sails up implies a fair degree of "operator error", whereas its only when under bare poles that the boat MUST look after the crew." From here: http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/stability3.htm

A good article: http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...leid=jkrets006

From FP: "All FP's meet not only the European standards, but the highest French, Offshore standards. (Necessary to sail out of the country on their own bottoms!) There are, for instance, reentry hatches located appropriately above the inverted waterline so that in the unlikely event of a capsize, you can use your inverted boat as a life raft with all supplies still available"


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