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Old 22-10-2014, 15:30   #31
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by nulik View Post
....the most important thing in buying a cat is not to lose too much money, because it will be always an expense, not investment, doesn't matter what brand it is.
It does matter what the brand is with production boats. Some brands have good reputations, whether they deserve it or not, and hold their value better than others. Hinckley, Morris, Oyster, Catana, Privilege, et al. They are still not investments (except from 2008 - 2012 ).

If you are contemplating building your own boat you will almost certainly lose in the long run. Even if you build the best boat on the planet of a particular design, you will have no reputation backing you up and when you sell that boat you'll be swimming upstream.

If you want to spend the least, do not buy a new boat. Buy a well cared for boat of a good design and reputable builder whose boats do better than others holding their value. This will cost you more upfront, but you'll likely be better off in the long run IF you know how to take care of the boat and keep it maintained.

Bottom line, if you think a boat is overpriced, don't buy it. If it grates you that a builder is making too much on a boat, don't buy that one either.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 22-10-2014, 15:33   #32
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Find me a reputable yard that will quote a not to exceed price of $520,000 for that boat and I will have a dozen sold in a week. You might be able to get just the hulls built for that much, but it won't be a finished boat.
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Old 22-10-2014, 16:49   #33
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by nulik View Post

(...)

if my purchase gives the manufacturer a lot of profits, (and I suspect the Leopard's 58 foot model is precisely that) then the losing guy will be me.

And obviously I don't want to lose.

(...)
And yet you will.

Except if you get a boat you love, then it becomes a lose some win some situation.

I, for one, would gladly lose some (more) money if I knew I could win some life.

b.
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:30   #34
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
It does matter what the brand is with production boats. Some brands have good reputations, whether they deserve it or not, and hold their value better than others. Hinckley, Morris, Oyster, Catana, Privilege, et al. They are still not investments (except from 2008 - 2012 ).

If you are contemplating building your own boat you will almost certainly lose in the long run. Even if you build the best boat on the planet of a particular design, you will have no reputation backing you up and when you sell that boat you'll be swimming upstream.

If you want to spend the least, do not buy a new boat. Buy a well cared for boat of a good design and reputable builder whose boats do better than others holding their value. This will cost you more upfront, but you'll likely be better off in the long run IF you know how to take care of the boat and keep it maintained.

Bottom line, if you think a boat is overpriced, don't buy it. If it grates you that a builder is making too much on a boat, don't buy that one either.

2 Hulls Dave
Lets face it. No boat's an investment other than your joy.
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Old 22-10-2014, 20:12   #35
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

All of the above about volume and fittings is accurate, but misses the point. Here's an overly simplified example. Let's say you own a business and you're deciding how to price your products. Do you start by deciding on an acceptable margin then figure up your costs, whip out your calculator and formulate your sale price? If so you'll likely be bankrupt soon.

Before you can do anything you need to understand your customers. There's very rarely a rational reason to buy a 58' catamaran. Perhaps a crewed charter might make financial sense, or a booze cruise type business. Other than that there's really no good reason to buy a boat like that. People still buy them, but not because it makes financial sense. They buy it because they want it regardless of the alternatives. As the manufacturer you should make a good margin on that sale. That customer is telling you they want to do something irrational because it makes them happy. They get to do that as they've earned that cash and you get to sell that boat as you've invested in its design and construction. If you sold it at the same margin as a more practical boat you'd be an idiot and your shareholders or investors would likely replace you.

Next you need to understand your competition. While it would be illegal in many countries to coordinate with your competitors you can be sure the few players in that small space are very aware of what the other guys are offering. It would be silly to compete on price when then price focused catamaran buyer is buying a 38' - 42' catamaran (like the one I bought).

The buyer of a 58' catamaran is smart enough to to have done pretty well in life. They're not likely to get ripped off, but they're also not likely to pick one model over another solely on price.

To put it another way, the buyer who analyzes price per foot and sets ideas of acceptable margin is not the person they're interested in. What's the margin on a Bentley? Who cares? Certainly not a Bentley buyer. The person who cares about cost per anything buys a Honda Civic. Neither one is wrong, but they certainly are different.





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Old 22-10-2014, 20:52   #36
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Looked at that way, no boat makes financial sense as none will provide any kind of return. All boats are an irrational buy. Its just a question of scale.

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Old 22-10-2014, 20:57   #37
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by nulik View Post
Complexity increases the price because the number of parts increases and you have to assemble them all. Here we don't have an increased number of parts, we just increase the size of each part.
The size increases the weight and thus the force needed to move the parts has to be bigger, but not twice.

Something must be wrong here.
Not more parts? You are joking! For example, there is a different and much more complicated system to raise the dinghy, more cabins more heads, more showers, more things to be wired, plumbed, etc, etc.

The third dimension is not constant, even though a person's height is. There is a third floor. There is more draft to carry all the weight.

It is also NOT a case of paying less for a larger volume of goods. This applies to mono's as well; way fewer really big boats get built, so the costs of tooling, moulds, and design are spread over a lot fewer hulls. Gemini built over 1000 hulls. I bet that R&C never touches 100 of those 58's. They made lots of 45's and 47's, but only 4 of their contemporaneous 62's. It's a competitive world, and if it were possible to build the same quality for less, someone would do it, but it isn't so they don't.
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Old 23-10-2014, 04:40   #38
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

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Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post
Looked at that way, no boat makes financial sense as none will provide any kind of return. All boats are an irrational buy. Its just a question of scale.

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Right, but there's a spectrum. Think of the full line of sedans that Toyota makes. There's a Corolla on one end and a Lexus LS460 on the other. As you move up the line the buying decision becomes less about utility and more about desire.

The Lexus has a bigger engine and a sunroof, but the additional gear and lower production numbers are not what determine the sale price. They sell it for more because they can get more for it. They can get more for it because the buyer isn't focused on dollars per anything.

Do they make a higher margin on the big Lexus? Of course they do, and they should.


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Old 23-10-2014, 07:12   #39
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Yes, but it still comes down to supply and demand. I seem to recall reading that Porsche, who produce only about 100,000 cars a year, was the most profitable automobile company in the world last year. Their customers are prepared, obviously, to pay a premium for their products, but why? Not merely because they are high-end sports cars, or sport-utes, or sedans - there are many high-end sports cars, sport-utes and sedans. Quality and performance are important, obviously, but reputation and status are gigantic factors. Does Leopard have such a reputation?

I would say no and indeed, would suggest that the demand for their 58 would be more elastic than a product from Catana, or some other builder with a more upscale reputation.

Anyway, I think we have beat this to death. Good luck to anyone who thinks that you can compare price for a larger cat with a smaller one based upon cost per pound/kilo of displacement, or price per foot/meter.

Brad
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Old 23-10-2014, 08:28   #40
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

I think we're agreeing. I drive a pretty fancy car and I bought it for the experience. 460hp and a heated steering wheel. It feels really nice.

I was on the Leopard 58 in Annapolis. That sure would feel nice too. Although more boat than I would want to bother with. We made jokes about rappers and strippers as we appreciated the outdoor kitchen on the top deck. It's a nice ride, there are fancier brands, but that's a nice boat.


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Old 26-10-2014, 13:28   #41
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by nulik View Post
...
But if my purchase gives the manufacturer a lot of profits, (and I suspect the Leopard's 58 foot model is precisely that) then the losing guy will be me. And obviously I don't want to lose.
This is why I am now investigating how much does it cost to produce a catamaran.
Dear colleague,

May I ask if Your investigation is more on theoretical, or practical side?

I.e. do You aaa) just collect Forum opinons, or bbb) seek for a yard to build a bigger cat at reasonable money more/less matching Your costs estimation?


If bbb) is correct, then You are welcome to PM.

Cordially,
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