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Old 21-10-2014, 08:24   #16
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by nulik View Post
The size increases the weight and thus the force needed to move the parts has to be bigger, but not twice.
and
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Originally Posted by nulik View Post
I prefer to see convincing numbers first. Those who don't calculate well, pay the premium.
OK, I just got the relevant numbers from the same site as you:
Displacement!
Leopard 44 - 27880lbs
Leopard 48 - 37480lbs

That's a 34% increase in displacement, pretty much in line with the figures I gave earlier.

(The 58 displaces 61730lbs, that's 2.2 times the displacement of the 44, so that's not too far out either on price)
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Old 21-10-2014, 08:34   #17
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

With huge reservations, you can relate the price to displacement. This relates to the amount of materials used but not to their quality, wormanship/skills/factory quality, and etc. factors. Still expect a nearly linear relationship with the same manufacturer and line.

And what use are such numbers?

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Old 21-10-2014, 09:16   #18
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

The 58 isn't at all comparable to the 48. Not only is it enormous, but it has far more systems. Each cabin has its own adjustable A/C - and you can have up to 6 cabins. That's a lot of extra equipment. Could have as few as 2-3 cabins too I think.

But there's 3 distinct levels. Flybridge, Main deck and the hulls. 44 and 48 only have 2 levels. And the upper level on the 58 is huge too!

I've been on all 3 that you compare and the 44 and 48 can be put against each other - the 58 is simply in a whole other class.
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Old 21-10-2014, 09:23   #19
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by nulik View Post
Hi,
I noted that the bigger the boat is, the higher is its price, so I tryed to confirm it and this is what I have got:
I go to Lepoard website (leopardcatamarans.com) and quote the price for these sizes:

Code:
58 foot catamaran, 3 cabins: 1,219,000
48 foot catamaran, 3 cabins: 569,000  
44 foot catamaran, 3 cabins: 449,000
(no motors, equipment or other additional stuff)
So, the price per foot, gives me:
Code:
58 - 21,017
48 - 11,854
44 - 10,204
Indeed, 1 foot of 58' catamaran costs 21k and 1 foot of 44' costs only 10k. But this seems to be a contradiction , every time you buy some stuff, the more you buy, the lower the price is, but not when you buy boats ??? How could it be? There must be some error. Please explain, why.

Thanks!!
Think it terms of the market sector attracted to the sizes. A man on a shoe sting budget doesn't think in terms of 58' nor the bells and whistles that accompany the larger size.
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Old 21-10-2014, 09:25   #20
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

Price per Ft:
58 - $21017 (106%)
48 - $11854 (16%)
44 - $10204

Prices per square meter result as follows:
58 feet - $8,220 (72%)
48 feet - $5,059 (5%)
44 feet - $4,778

Your comments ?

I added the percent increase and you will see that it is much closer when you consider surface area. I mean a 5% difference could easily be build quality or more likely just random varation and the 58ft comes much closer. When you account for the multi-deck nature of the 58, that explains most of the 72%. The 58' isn't just human height. Put it side by side with the 44 and it will dwarf the little boat.

Plus who ever said, that costs must increase in a direct linear fashion. You could get silly and say that a 10ft dingy at around $1000, is only $100/ft. Does that mean $4778/ft isn't realistic?
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Old 21-10-2014, 13:31   #21
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Just a quick look at this thread, but there are too many variables IMHO to equate these figures in an accurate correlation.

Not only are the furnishings in the larger cat more, both in size, number, and probably opulence, but what about other equipment?

For example, larger winches (and electric winches), windlasses, spars, sails, heavier duty davits, washer & dryer, and probably a whole lot else I left out. These are items that may have no correlation in price to their smaller counterparts, either, or don't even exist on the smaller boat.

While the OP certainly has started an interesting thread for discussion, I think trying to find some direct meaningful correlation may be an exercise in futility.

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Old 21-10-2014, 13:53   #22
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

There are many reasons that price per foot/meter LOA, or price per pound/kilo of displacement are less than helpful in assessing the pricing of two boats, particularly when they they are significantly different in size and equipment inventory. Indeed, with multihulls, a boat of the same size with less displacement can be significantly more expensive to produce if the weight is saved through increased use of carbon fiber in the hulls and spars etc.

Furthermore, much larger boats (such as the Lagoon 58) will undoubtedly cost more in tooling than a smaller boat, yet the manufacturer will have to pay for that out of a smaller potential market (on a supply/demand analysis, many less people can afford, or are in the market for a 58 foot cat than a 44 foot cat). The consequence is that production costs are increased not only by the additional materials and labour used in the construction of a larger boat, but also because a higher percentage of the initially higher total tooling cost must be passed on for each boat sold.

Of course, the latter is also true for various parts/systems used in the assembly of the boat: winches, spars, anchors, diesels, etc. all must be bigger on a bigger boat and, the manufacturers of these products must also recoup tooling costs for these larger items out of a smaller number of sales.

This is to say nothing of the equipment inventories - those who can afford to purchase very large catamarans will often insist on more standard 'luxuries' than those who are stretching their budgets to purchase even a much smaller catamaran.
Indeed, we must consider proposed use - many, if not most cats produced by a company such as Leopard in the 44 foot range will go into bareboat charter fleets, whereas very few (if any) of their 58 foot cats will be rented out as bareboats. Bareboats typically have much smaller equipment inventories than privately owned yachts, or ones that are used in crewed charters (as is more likely to be the case with the 58). Whereas most 44 foot bareboats will not have air conditioning (or the generators needed to use them), the customers on a crewed charter on a 58 foot cat will almost assuredly insist upon air conditioning (if not, as has been pointed out, individually controlled air conditioning for each cabin as specified for the Leopard 58).

Brad
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Old 21-10-2014, 18:11   #23
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Here's an easier answer: the price of any product is what the market will bear.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 22-10-2014, 00:37   #24
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by nulik View Post
I prefer to see convincing numbers first. Those who don't calculate well, pay the premium.
If you are concerned about value, here's another way to look at things...

To buy, for instance, a 10 year old Privilege 40-45 ft cat will cost you maybe 40-60% of the original purchase price.

To buy a 10 year old Privilege 58 ft will cost you something close to the original purchase price and maybe a bit more.

If you are planning on buying a new cat, and keep it for a while, which of the above is the best value?
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Old 22-10-2014, 13:34   #25
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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If you are concerned about value, here's another way to look at things...

To buy, for instance, a 10 year old Privilege 40-45 ft cat will cost you maybe 40-60% of the original purchase price.

To buy a 10 year old Privilege 58 ft will cost you something close to the original purchase price and maybe a bit more.

If you are planning on buying a new cat, and keep it for a while, which of the above is the best value?
yes, I am concerned about the value, more exactly, I want to know how much profit I am paying to the manufacturer. A business that does more than 30% in profits per item is a good business. But if my purchase gives the manufacturer a lot of profits, (and I suspect the Leopard's 58 foot model is precisely that) then the losing guy will be me. And obviously I don't want to lose.
This is why I am now investigating how much does it cost to produce a catamaran. One designer already told me that the materials in the boat is 35% of the price, and the other is time and know-how. Another designer gave me good info about the costs.For example , this cat of Schioning Designs:
G-Force 1800
could cost around 520k USD to build, and that model is 60 feet long.(built in Australia,t hey have higher GDP percapita, so it is more expensive)
And I am living in Mexico, I have cheap labor force here, and I am very close to the USA so, bringing parts will be very easy.
Maybe this design is even better than CATANA, PDQ, who knows, the most important thing in buying a cat is not to lose too much money, because it will be always an expense, not investment, doesn't matter what brand it is.
p.s.
here are 2 Privileges in yachtworld
60' Privilege 615 2012 US$ 1,775,864 France

60' Privilege 615 2007 US$ 1,085,960 South of France, France
that is about 30% devaulation for 5 years... boat is a machine and machines devalue by its use
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Old 22-10-2014, 13:49   #26
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Both of those cats cost less when they were new than the asking price
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Old 22-10-2014, 14:05   #27
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

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Here's an easier answer: the price of any product is what the market will bear.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 22-10-2014, 14:07   #28
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Add to all of this discussion the quantity sold. Even if the cost/length relationship is linear by length, area, or volume the 58' will always be more expensive than the 44' or 48'. And thus the quantity sold will be lower. And the cost of tooling (molds, etc.) has to be spread over the number of hulls built/sold before that tooling becomes worn out/obsolete. Thus the fixed cost per build is likely disproportionately greater in the larger boat.

Guess that's why Marples et al developed Constant Camber, the same tooling can be used for multiple hull sizes and builds. For the most part that technique is not used with these production builders.
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Old 22-10-2014, 14:40   #29
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Re: catamarans: price and size relation

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Originally Posted by nulik View Post
For example , this cat of Schioning Designs:
G-Force 1800
could cost around 520k USD to build, and that model is 60 feet long.(built in Australia,t hey have higher GDP percapita, so it is more expensive)
You are not going to get that built for $520K.
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Old 22-10-2014, 15:27   #30
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Re: Catamarans: Price and Size Relation

Good god, where did you get that $520k number? Maybe if you built it yourself, but then doubtful and you'd never get your money back out of it.

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