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Old 25-09-2006, 18:20   #31
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There's a couple of different issues being discussed here. I'll take one by one.

1. Boards, at least in bad wx they can be retracted so tripping won't be an issue. Keel cats are the ones that have problems in this regard

2. Aesthetics, while a nice classic is quite good eye candy, most production monos leave me as cold or colder than most multis. A few years ago (okay 20-30 yrs ago) the high freeboard of today's monos was considered ugly an unseaworth, today it's just normal. We adjust our standards, multi's will be 'normal' to the next generation.

3. Gemini's are fairly narrow for their length, so any recent capsizes aren't likely to be due to tripping on their boards. Tripping usually only occurs in large offshore breaking seas, not coastwise. Sounds like too much sail for the conditions type of capsize. Cat's don't give much warning and need to be 'learned'.

4. Scope. 5-7 times depth is the Standard and recommended scope for anchoring. Period. However, less line and chain is cheaper, you get to anchor where you think you wanted if you give up using adequate scope in a croweded anchorage and none of the folks who didn't know any better will yell at you. Is that good enough to risk your boat/family/fun? Don't blame the multihull folks! Proper bridles will allow a cat to ride quietly at anchor, sometimes even better than monos. I've also found that just taking the anchor line to one hull or the mooring buoy pendant will also keep me laying very well in the anchorage. That being said light, shoal boats will swing differently than heavy deep ones, no matter whether they are mono or multi.

Just my observations.
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Old 25-09-2006, 19:18   #32
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I believe that Gemini's have the same 2-1 ratio my boat has beam to LWL. When do any Cats go over when there isn't an overpower question? My type of boat (Catalac) isn't known to go over, they slip sideways instead. I think one did go over in France about 15 years ago, but it was a steering gear failure, in a storm which lead to it. For reference, there were 400-500 boats produced.

I'm afraid I disagree with your conclusion as data seems to indicate that boards down can be a bad thing, and large production "no dagger board" Cats do not turn turtle. Now, pitchpolling.... that's an entirely different can of worms.

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Old 25-09-2006, 19:39   #33
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect that your SA/D figures are somewhat lower than the Gemini. This is more likely to be the reason for fewer capsizes with Catalacs. You also misunderstand my comment on boards. I am advocating raising them during bad weather so tripping on them would then be inherently impossible. Again, typical board boats 'Generally' are higher horsepower than keel designs and have higher SA/D ratios and smaller righting moments. Of course there are exceptions but all else being equal, the heavier cats seem to have the better safety record if not the better performance.

I still think (with all due respect) that slipping sideways is only a positive characteristic in severe storm conditions but is insufficient to prevent wind capsize and side slipping is best done in a board boat with boards retracted.
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Old 25-09-2006, 22:21   #34
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Safety vs performance ...

Safety vs performance ... an age old question. I've desired better windward perfomance more than once, but when I step back and look at the whole picture, I can say that I'm satisfied.

I also have to disagree. Slipping sideways is a characteristic which was artfully designed for one reason only, and that is to prevent wind capsizes. In the case of Catalacs, it's a combination of a short rig and a tracking hull which has been demonstrably effective. Their record speaks for itself as does Prout, Heavenly Twins and Iroquois. None are considered performance catamarans yet almost all boats manufactured are still sailing after 20 + years. Isn't that the measure of this discussion?

Wouldn't you agree that it will be some time before newer designs can be measured against this record.

Rick in Florida
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Old 26-09-2006, 03:05   #35
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I dont understand the "big slot" comment. The pivoting boards on the Gemini seem to keep the slot filled whether they are in the up or the down position. They are sort of pie-shaped, and swivel from the front, or narrow, part of the pie section. Is there any open slot?
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Old 26-09-2006, 03:14   #36
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Gemini sails really well and I was impressed with its windward ability, but I would not like to be caught out in bad weather in one!
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Old 26-09-2006, 03:26   #37
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I dont want to be caught in bad weather in any of em! In fact, I have a lifelong aversion to being "caught"in general...

Seriously, I dont plan to cross oceans in the cat. If I want to sail Greece (and I most definitely DO want to sail greece) I plan to fly over and charter a big old condomaran. Then fly home to my little Gemini and sail between islands and back and forth across the Spanish Lake.
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Old 26-09-2006, 04:06   #38
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fair enough canibul, we dont have many of them in Australia. Any cats I've seen with boards like in your image pivot right down to a north /south position, leaving a big slot. What you have is a bit like a Tornado, or is it a Taipan beach cat.
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Old 26-09-2006, 06:21   #39
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Thanks for the input. I know a lot more about boards now than I did before reading all of this. The Gemini approach makes more sense to me than daggerboards, which I take to mean go essentially straight down and are held rigid in both pitch and roll axis. I also think that the Gemini boards must behave differently than daggerboards in the beam seas scenario, as well. Being shallow and longer than daggerboards, I think they have less torque on the hull in the roll axis. Just a shorter lever. Somewhat of a cross between a deep daggerboard and a fixed keel.
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Old 17-10-2006, 12:48   #40
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Originally Posted by rickm505
As to sailing a Cat with boards down. I'm afraid, I'm with Talbot on this one. First off, no boat sinks when sailing in perfect weather, it's when things get nasty that bad things happen. Many of the failures of Cats (admittedly in rough seas) document that the Cat tripped over it's boards and went over.
Can you document any capsize of a cruising catamaran? The only capsize that I know of was the French boat Accroch Coeur which was capsized by wind while rounding a cape on Spain's Mediteranean coast.

http://www.google.com/search?num=100...an&btnG=Search

This is the only capsize of a cruising catamaran (ie. 40 plus feet, not engaged in racing) that I know of and I've been following those sorts of stories pretty avidly for the past ten years.

Now a practical point about daggerboards vs. keels: If you're stuck in extreme weather you can raise boards completely which, in theory, would allow the boat to skid sideways instead of tipping over. It isn't clear that this matters all that much as there are a number of cases where people have abandoned cruising cats in a storm only to find them floating upright afterwards. Richard Woods' recent loss of Eclipse and the Ramtha (abandoned in the Queen's Birthday storm off NZ) are two well documented examples.

-Scott
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Old 17-10-2006, 20:57   #41
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GMAC noted that the KIWI builder is in receivership and Perry Catamarans just closed their doors. What's all that about.
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Old 18-10-2006, 05:47   #42
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A 9m Catalac capsized during a gale nearly 2 decades ago. She was running fast before a strong wind and large waves, and broached. This would not normally be a problem on a catalac, but the owner of this boat in his unwisdom had added nearly 2ft deep keels by abt 4ft long onto the bottom of the hull. These caught and trippd the boat. All onboard were able to get out easily, and extract the dinghy, which they parked between the upturned hulls. They stayed there for some time well protected from the conditions, until the mast touched the bottom as they approached a beach. They rowed out from between the hulls and up the shore.

This was documented in Practical Boat Owner, and is also in a book (called Total Loss IIRC)
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Old 18-10-2006, 15:06   #43
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I'd rather be in a mono in extreme latitudes, the southern ocean, cape horn, that sort of thing.
belated post to Randy on St Francis. Dude, you boat is BUILT in the southern latitudes, it has to sail there DAY 1! I don't want to be out in a bad storm in anything, but every St Francis built starts in South Africa, and many, many of them go around the point.
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Old 18-10-2006, 16:42   #44
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Hey SD,
Look forward to talking more about Saint Francis with you. We're almost done with a bunch of upgrades here in Lauderdale. I'll crew for you around the Storms or the Horn but mine is staying between 30 and 30 for a while... :-)
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Old 18-10-2006, 16:45   #45
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Long Reach,
Thanks for the update. Does/did Perry own them?
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