Catamarans in 50kt winds

[Bulawayo]

Amels are fantastic boats and if I ever felt the need to go back to a monohull then these would top the list. I am assuming that you have an Amel Mango from your name. Good choice of boat.

Originally Posted by Mango51

Did a quick look and Alpha catamarans have 6 water tight bulkhead that keep you afloat if you flip. Along with escape hatch. (mono) Amel supermaramu 53 has 5 watertight bulkheads. There's many other brands I would think. Just an idea to get the sinking out of the equation.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Souther Wombat

Don't imagine for a second that short clip shows storm conditions. That's not 50 to 60 knots. There's a lot of disinformation.

I'd estimate not much over 20 knots. Where did the video originate ? Someones telling whoppers.

Weavis put that Video up, He stated on it 50 to 60 knots,

I was only commenting on how stable the cat was in the weather in those conditions,

Take your Argument about the wind strength up with him if you think he is telling Lies about it,,

[KJThomas]

Originally Posted by peter57

A steel yacht of good design is always going to be safer than a cat IMO if it is well designed and made, has the proper hatches and small ports.
The most danger is been thrown around the inside which can be overcome by tying oneself into a bunk, with well stowed equipment.

A Cat with boards up will slide and ride better than a mono up until a point, but if the **** really hits the fan The steel mono is safer, if you capsize and spars come loose they will have a hard time to punch a hole in the deck or the hull. Even if you do lose the rig you are floating upright with little water inside not half full of water and upside down with no chance of jury rig or starting the motor,

I remember a 85 degree knockdown in a large square rigged steel ship in totally enclosed waters from a katabatic gust. Only good design saved us as all the hatches were open. We lost all the books out of the wheelhouse as they flew out the lee door. If the gust had been a little bit stronger or longer we would probaby have sunk. The ships angle of vanishing stability was about 85 to 90. Most sailing ships and a lot of classic monohull yachts it is actually less.
The same situation in a cat we simply accelerated. The apparent wind reduction as we sped up allowed us to drop the main.
As i said. Horses for courses.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Weavis put that Video up, He stated on it 50 to 60 knots,

I was only commenting on how stable the cat was in the weather in those conditions,

Take your Argument about the wind strength up with him if you think he is telling Lies about it,,

i always say, monos are good for exercising monkey instincts. Older you get more you need it. In cats bad weather is nothing to talk about, like wombat noticed.

Ideally one should have both types, one for exercise other for fun.

[Bulawayo]

Hmmmmm, if Weavis says its so, then I am happy to accept his word. Any half experienced sailor knows that footage rarely can recreate the reality. I have filmed 40-50 knots and afterwards, watching the same footage .......well, it all looked so tame.
This can also be seen on You Tube. In particular, when 'Honeymoon' posted a clip of sailing in 50Knots in his Lagoon 38ft. It looks pretty mild on film. Is that also a bit of creativity? It is not disinformation.
As you say, someone is telling whoppers.

Originally Posted by Souther Wombat

Don't imagine for a second that short clip shows storm conditions. That's not 50 to 60 knots. There's a lot of disinformation.

I'd estimate not much over 20 knots. Where did the video originate ? Someones telling whoppers.

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by KJThomas

The ships angle of vanishing stability was about 85 to 90. Most sailing ships and a lot of classic monohull yachts it is actually less.

I am sure you could point to at least one classic monohull with an AVS that low. I just happen not to know of any monohull designed and sold for blue water cruising with such a low AVS.


In many jurisdictions, boat manufacturers producing monohulls have had to conform to ISO 12217 to some degree or another (eg the Recreational Craft Directive). And that means being classified into 'design categories'. Category A being what can be loosely regarded as fit for blue water cruising.


Note the AVS specs from the 2013 version of ISO 12217:

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I have no dog in the fight but I disagree. It would be possible for wind to get under the bridge deck on a light cat.. Likelihood small. Knocking down a mono at anchor with 50kns isn't going to happen unless someone removed the ballast

50 knots of wind is not going to get under the bridgedeck of a light cruising cat and flip it. I'd like to see any example of a cruising cat being flipped by 50 knots of wind with no sail up. I don't believe it has ever happened. Happy for someone to prove me wrong...

I was out in gusts of 38'ish in an outremer 45 with full main and jib up doing 18 knots. She had a heavy tiller but that's it. With a reef in she felt fine, no problem. Reduced sail in 50 knots and that boat would be fine. There's quite a bit of hyperbole around about cats flipping.

[KJThomas]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

I am sure you could point to at least one classic monohull with an AVS that low. I just happen not to know of any monohull designed and sold for blue water cruising with such a low AVS.


In many jurisdictions, boat manufacturers producing monohulls have had to conform to ISO 12217 to some degree or another. And that means being classified into 'design categories'. Category A being what can be loosely regarded as fit for blue water cruising.


Note the AVS specs from the 2013 version of ISO 12217:

Unfortunately rather a lot. Not just older yachts from pre outside ballast times and copies of classics, but yachts from the era when the race rules penalised stability.(Refer Marchaz and Fastnet race). There are thousands which have been re-purposed as cruising yachts. Even more scarily many have had deck houses and ss structures added on deck.
Fortunately rollovers are not that common for any type of yacht.

Stability rules are rather a late addition for offshore yachts.

By the way, my workday ride, a monohull, has a loaded AVS of about 65 degrees.

[KJThomas]

Originally Posted by tp12

50 knots of wind is not going to get under the bridgedeck of a light cruising cat and flip it. I'd like to see any example of a cruising cat being flipped by 50 knots of wind with no sail up. I don't believe it has ever happened. Happy for someone to prove me wrong...

I was out in gusts of 38'ish in an outremer 45 with full main and jib up doing 18 knots. She had a heavy tiller but that's it. With a reef in she felt fine, no problem. Reduced sail in 50 knots and that boat would be fine. There's quite a bit of hyperbole around about cats flipping.

My 32 foot cat downwind in 30 knots (from the wind gauge) under full sail.
"On the verge of capsize"?

[Mr B]

Lots of Cats flip over and pitch pole,
Have a look at the last America's cup, They were doing it all the time, hahahahaha
Massive amount of sail up, Doing 40 odd Knots, up on foils,
Extreme racing on or over the edge, What do you expect,
Of course they will go over, They are racing to the max,

Its par for the course, They just lift them back on their hulls and they are in the next race,
and doing the exact same thing, Racing to the max,

So after watching these Cats flip over, People assume that all Cats flip over like that,
Mono's dont flip over in Races, They may lose a few crew members, washed over the side,

Cruising Cats usually end up on the beach or rocks travelling too close to shore, But not head over heels,
I know of a couple of cruising Cats that have upended here off the Coast of OZ, But they were racing,

[KJThomas]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Lots of Cats flip over and pitch pole,
Have a look at the last America's cup, They were doing it all the time, hahahahaha
Massive amount of sail up, Doing 40 odd Knots, up on foils,
Extreme racing on or over the edge, What do you expect,
Of course they will go over, They are racing to the max,

Its par for the course, They just lift them back on their hulls and they are in the next race,
and doing the exact same thing, Racing to the max,

So after watching these Cats flip over, People assume that all Cats flip over like that,
Mono's dont flip over in Races, They may lose a few crew members, washed over the side,

Cruising Cats usually end up on the beach or rocks travelling too close to shore, But not head over heels,
I know of a couple of cruising Cats that have upended here off the Coast of OZ, But they were racing,

Another Given design owner. EH.

My boat was a Gulf Tiger.

Another mono just killed someone a few weeks ago. But they are safer than multis?

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by KJThomas

Stability rules are rather a late addition for offshore yachts.

By the way, my workday ride, a monohull, has a loaded AVS of about 65 degrees.

Sure. It depends on the jurisdiction. I think the UK and the EU brought in stability rules and classifications in the late 1990s. And of course some jurisdictions still do not adhere to the late-1990s standards.


The Recreational Craft Directive distinguished between ocean cruisers, category A; and offshore cruisers, Category B.


Even in jurisdictions that have not moved far towards ISO 12217 and before the RCD and the first edition of ISO 12217, you could find designers and boat builders who produced blue water cruisers with AVS that surpassed the RCD and ISO 12217 minimums.


My daily ride has an AVS of about 130 (in departure mode, a tad lower in arrival mass).


Here's a quick graphical guide to AVS minimums, according to the RCD and ISO 12217, by displacement: http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/ima...WVX5FXjhpy.jpg

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by KJThomas

Because of my job I receive all the marine accident and incident reports worldwide. I don't see any sign of horrific amounts of fatalities in cruising multihulls. Rather the reverse.
Not the same for racing yachts, multi and mono. But still not high compared with the numbers sailing.

Statistically you are much more likely to die in a car accident. Or while gardening.
I just broke my ankle gardening.

This is fact. Not opinions. Which there appears to be rather too much of in this thread.

This is undoubtedly true. And anyway it would be pretty obvious -- considering the relatively small numbers -- if there were a safety problem with catamarans. There is obviously none.



But there is not only the question of objective safety, but also how safe it feels.

I have sailed a catamaran in heavy weather and it made me nervous. The thing is you can't feel the press of canvas because of the lack of heeling, and the lack of heeling means there is no mechanism for dissipating the excess energy, so it just builds up until you go over.

In the latitudes where I sail presently, I would not like that. I really like the feeling that there is something to give, and that righting moment increases with heel, and the sails are depowered as you heel. I like the feeling that if, God forbid, I get knocked down (as happened to me last year), I'll pop right back up. Although living on a heel in general sucks, these other things are very comforting in places like the North Sea, where if you're not willing to sail in a F8, you might have to wait weeks to go out.

But in more benign latitudes, and especially for something like a tradewinds circumnavigation, involving long ocean crossings, I think I would prefer a catamaran. Something large, maybe a Chris White Atlantic 57. Maybe with a somewhat smaller, shorter rig to add safety margin and reduce windage. For me, cats start to become really interesting when they are big enough to have quite narrow hulls like that, and to still have decent waterlines. The result of all this plus the lack of ballast means fantastically easily driven hulls, which will make for wonderful sailing as well as wonderful motoring.

For cruising the Med, I think I would also definitely prefer a cat. All the motoring you do there would be much more pleasant in a cat.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have sailed a catamaran in heavy weather and it made me nervous. The thing is you can't feel the press of canvas because of the lack of heeling, and the lack of heeling means there is no mechanism for dissipating the excess energy, so it just builds up until you go over.

I think your objective viewpoint is correct. In saying that, it is the viewpoint of a competent mono sailor who uses the techniques and feel of working a mono instead of accumulated knowledge of how to sail a Catamaran in wind...

An experienced Cat sailor can tell you of how they work the passage with reduced sail, eye on the fill and the feel of the boat so it does not overpower.. time aboard will give you that knowledge..

[barnakiel]

Apparently, Garcia is making a HUGE MISTAKE with this one then.

Nos voiliers

As well as with their former two cats!

Alas, in this discussion I will say Garcia got it right and some posters got it wrong.

Cats not feeling safe? Maybe due to lack of RELEVANT EXPERIENCE of the person posting? Let's not be so self centered.

Makes me feel like listening to catholic priests talking sex life.

Cheers,
b.