Catamarans in 50kt winds

[Cottontop]

As it's 10 years old I suppose many here have read it, but I hadn't and enjoyed it (cat musings from an insurance guy(?)):

Catamaran Controversy

[Bulawayo]

Did you watch the one with 50 knots which is the subject matter? It wasnt an issue for the boat.

Originally Posted by peter57

I perused impi and honeymoon on youtube, not rough weather. thats good for put miles behind you.

[Bulawayo]

First time I have seen it and I dismissed it just before the end as the demented wanderings of a biased mind. I suppose it has some entertainment value for some people for whom it echoes.
This is turning into cat vs mono saga.

Originally Posted by Cottontop

As it's 10 years old I suppose many here have read it, but I hadn't and enjoyed it (cat musings from an insurance guy(?)):

Catamaran Controversy

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Did you watch the one with 50 knots which is the subject matter? It wasnt an issue for the boat.

I think the worst I've seen was some honeymooners doing nearly twenty knots in fifty knot winds - probably a long time ago so maybe not available anymore on YouTube

[Bulawayo]

Sounds about right - I recall that Seth, the Captain, did not seem especially perturbed, and his Lagoon 38 was handling the ride just fine (they were running). He was comfortable enough to video what was happening.

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

I think the worst I've seen was some honeymooners doing nearly twenty knots in fifty knot winds - probably a long time ago so maybe not available anymore on YouTube

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Do we know what sort of cat? Two tubes with a bit of a kite like trampoline or a fledged ocean cruiser? Its sometimes like talking about racing mono's loosing their bolt on super winged keels . Its not representative of a cruising mono.

No, I do not know the exact type of cat, although I had sailed past it several times before the storm but paid no particular attention. It was not a production cat... I believe home built, but a substantial vessel with a bridgedeck house and tramp foredeck. Definitely not a Stilleto type or racer. I might be able to find out if it is important to you.

Jim

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

(...)

mast/rigging integrity and mast-keel bonding becomes of critical importance as one should be prepared for multiple rolls in confused seas. Number of expected rolls decreasing by width of the boat.

Yes. A cat only half a roll over actually. A mono, depends on how much rig left after the first roll over. Nearly always there is no rig left after the first try.

No production boats designed with rig parameters to allow for roll overs. maybe some purpose built ones, but I have never heard of.

Some time back a sailing boat purpose built for rough weather got wiped out off Bergen. You can google up her images. The crew abandoned (airlifted).

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/dc/e1/10/z177...e-w-Bergen.jpg

b.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago there was a sudden and fierce storm which lead to the loss of several boats, and t he near loss of a brand new >million dollar 8 meter classic yacht (written up in Afloat). During that storm, which had gusts around 80 knots according to folks who sat through it, a ~35-40 ft catamaran on a mooring was flipped. It then proceeded to drag its mooring through the anchorage, damaging a couple of boats on the way. Bad joss for sure! There were no big seas involved, for it is a well protected anchorage with little fetch, yet there it was, inverted. If it can happen under these conditions, could it not also happen at sea to a vessel with bare poles?

FWIW, there were several monohulls damaged at their moorings, but none actually knocked down as far as I heard. The tin roof was ripped from a shed on shore... flew through the air and dismasted a moored boat (timber mast, just launched after a refit) and then nearly sliced an automobile in half. Not a nice day on the water!

Please don't take this as cat-bashing! This was a well documented incident, and I'm trying to relate it to the realities of multihull sailing as discussed in this thread.

Jim

Hi Jim, that was an interesting case. I talked to the guys who recovered the boat, and I watched her as they lifted her out on the travellift. Apparently she dragged out the bay upright, taking the whole mooring with her. I think at some point it had slipped across the forebeam and was hanging off near one of the bows. Probably close to half a tonne or more of weight. The speculation was that the weight of the mooring on the bow combined with a erratic gust that might have rotated the boat so that she pitchpoled over the weighted down bow? She may also have taken some water in from some damage to the bow before flipping. It sounds like it was fair blowing. Apparently a local saw her dissappear in a cloud of wind driven spray, then when the wind eased enough to see her again she was upside down.

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[Bulawayo]

Its not critical ...... just curious. As its likely a one off, it is not really relevant to anything as to why/how she went over. Cheers.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No, I do not know the exact type of cat, although I had sailed past it several times before the storm but paid no particular attention. It was not a production cat... I believe home built, but a substantial vessel with a bridgedeck house and tramp foredeck. Definitely not a Stilleto type or racer. I might be able to find out if it is important to you.

Jim

[Bulawayo]

Thank you, Snow Petrel - a good possible reason.

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Hi Jim, that was an interesting case. I talked to the guys who recovered the boat, and I watched her as they lifted her out on the travellift. Apparently she dragged out the bay upright, taking the whole mooring with her. I think at some point it had slipped across the forebeam and was hanging off near one of the bows. Probably close to half a tonne or more of weight. The speculation was that the weight of the mooring on the bow combined with a erratic gust that might have rotated the boat so that she pitchpoled over the weighted down bow? She may also have taken some water in from some damage to the bow before flipping. It sounds like it was fair blowing. Apparently a local saw her dissappear in a cloud of wind driven spray, then when the wind eased enough to see her again she was upside down.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Souther Wombat]

Originally Posted by Ian Johnstone

Ocean sailing is about taking risks that are as well managed as can be. We circumnavigated the globe on a 47 foot Catana catamaran and experienced several sustained bouts of Force 9 and 10 conditions in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. I have previously circumnavigated on monos ranging from 33ft to 48ft and experiencing multiple gales and even storm force conditions in the Tasman Sea ..........

But Ian don't forget you are very experienced and capable. Most of us don't have you or Cathy aboard when it goes to custard

It as in the Tasman that we we had our worst experience in a Crowther 50. Closing with NZ heading for Nelson and a low that was supposed to be benign deepened and developed into a nasty blow initially Northerlies for around 10 hours at 35 knots gusting 45 and then SW at a similar wind speed. After another 5 hours the resulting seas were ugly and frightening and night was an ordeal. I'm sure you've met similar conditions.

That was a gale. If the winds had been storm force or the 50 knots the OP was talking about....

In the QB storm the two cats in the worst of it both reported that they were standing on the side windows at times ! We were no where near that.

Size is everything and our 40 ton 65 footer is a much nicer boat in heavy weather than anything we have had before and it motors 8 knots to windward into anything which is what we want. The 50 foot cat could only hold position (actually a slow drift astern) under power in a gale in a seaway and the props come out of the water continually which shakes the drive train apart at full power.

We have had worse weather but much more ordered seas and found it easy fast sailing. Everything depends on the resulting sea state.

Cross seas in heavy weather have nearly been our undoing, we fell off one a few years ago and the wave around 25 feet broke right over the boat knocked it down to just past 90 degrees and did some damage bending the mainmast compression post. If we'd been in a cat I really doubt we would have survived that.

We know people who had a heavy 38 foot cat that was inverted at anchor just by the wind in Greece. Both elderly and with thousands of miles and a circumnav in the same cat. She nearly drowned trapped in the boat before she was rescued. Her partner was unable to do anything.

Another cat a 50 foot light performance oriented cruiser just blew over while motoring in scotland in a calm but gusty sound. It was night. They also couldn't get at epirb or liferaft but the gps epirb auto triggered inside the flooded boat and they were rescued.

I know several more cases of cats blowing over bare poled and at anchor.

That erodes confidence in anxious times for me.

But this is my thoughts on the cat in a storm (50 knots), I'd recommend a cat but not for heavy weather. I'd stay in more benign climes with less temperamental weather maybe unless I had you aboard.

[Souther Wombat]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Without wanting to stir the pot excessively, we've heard of several cats being flipped on their moorings with no sail up and in flat water. One specific incident was in Little Oyster cove (off Kettering) in Tasmania. A couple of years ago ..............d.

Jim

And a cat we know that raced in the three peaks race "Big Wave rider" was blown right over in calm water a few weeks ago I'm told she wasn't sailing. Just a sudden squall wrong place wrong time for them and nothing anyone could do about it regardless of experience.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Souther Wombat

And a cat we know that raced in the three peaks race "Big Wave rider" was blown right over in calm water a few weeks ago I'm told she wasn't sailing. Just a sudden squall wrong place wrong time for them and nothing anyone could do about it regardless of experience.

Thats not what I heard, a friend saw her go over. Far too much sail up for the conditions was his opinion.

[sparau]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No, I do not know the exact type of cat, although I had sailed past it several times before the storm but paid no particular attention. It was not a production cat... I believe home built, but a substantial vessel with a bridgedeck house and tramp foredeck. Definitely not a Stilleto type or racer. I might be able to find out if it is important to you.

Jim

From memory it was a Snell Easy 37, lightish at ~4-5t, ply construction.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by sparau

From memory it was a Snell Easy 37, lightish at ~4-5t, ply construction.

Yeah, that sounds about right. A very nicely designed and built boat. Certainly not extreme in any way. Looked like she didn't get too badly trashed. They got her washed and dried out pretty quickly.