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Old 03-08-2016, 16:53   #106
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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An inverted monohull doesn't have a 100% chance it will right itself, but almost a 100% chance it will sink. An inverted multihull has almost a 100% chance it won't right itself, but a good chance it won't sink. When rescuers are looking for the scene of disaster is it easier to spot an inverted multihull or sunken monohull? How many monohulls a year are written of as lost at sea with not a trace left? Though some inverted multihulls won't be habitable after inverting they at least give the rescuers a starting point to look for survivors in a liferaft.


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A steel yacht of good design is always going to be safer than a cat IMO if it is well designed and made, has the proper hatches and small ports.
The most danger is been thrown around the inside which can be overcome by tying oneself into a bunk, with well stowed equipment.

A Cat with boards up will slide and ride better than a mono up until a point, but if the **** really hits the fan The steel mono is safer, if you capsize and spars come loose they will have a hard time to punch a hole in the deck or the hull. Even if you do lose the rig you are floating upright with little water inside not half full of water and upside down with no chance of jury rig or starting the motor,
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:07   #107
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by peter57 View Post
A steel yacht of good design is always going to be safer than a cat IMO if it is well designed and made, has the proper hatches and small ports.
The most danger is been thrown around the inside which can be overcome by tying oneself into a bunk, with well stowed equipment.
It is storm. You have to hand steer. Therefore you have to be in cockpit. You have to have all openings closed as boat is washed by every wave.

Boat turned 180 deg or so by a 5m roller. So... what is the course of action ? Rob redford had to swim behind the boat and hold air for 3 minutes and is was bright. and just as he is secured back, boat turned around perfect timing.

How much chance you have to come out alive ?
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:19   #108
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Heh, give them some time. They're still learning to sail and making throw pillows for the cockpit.

Check out Impi and Honeymoon on youtube. Bother are Lagoons and both of them had some rough weather crossings that were recorded.

I'm still shopping myself
I perused impi and honeymoon on youtube, not rough weather. thats good for put miles behind you.
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:22   #109
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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(...)

Even if you do lose the rig you are floating upright with little water inside not half full of water and upside down with no chance of jury rig or starting the motor,
If you lose the rig WHICH IS THE NORM in a capsize, you will capsize again and then maybe again. And then you will press the red button. If you can still locate it among the floating debris in the pitch dark interior.

And do not overworry the steel hatches. Very few are watertight while water pouring in thru the dorades, cockpit lockers and broken windows.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:33   #110
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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It is storm. You have to hand steer. Therefore you have to be in cockpit. You have to have all openings closed as boat is washed by every wave.

Boat turned 180 deg or so by a 5m roller. So... what is the course of action ? Rob redford had to swim behind the boat and hold air for 3 minutes and is was bright. and just as he is secured back, boat turned around perfect timing.

How much chance you have to come out alive ?

Have not seen the movie but sounds like bad seamanship as I have been in a situation of still trying to helm and not able to breath from the depth of water over the boat, when I had the chance to look forward most of the time I could not see any part of the hull only the main mast coming out of foaming water. A very short tether kept me onboard but not on my feet, at times pinned to the cockpit sole by the weight of water.
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:35   #111
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

If it is a bad storm you are unlikely to steer for any extended period.

She has to run under APs or the windvane. In a cat it will be under the AP.

Robert is exactly the problem here. Some of us watch movies rather than sail the miles.

b.
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:40   #112
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Not whales, it's 40' container attacks.
Good point!
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:41   #113
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Multi-hull Mythbusters - Australian Yachting November/December 2010 - MySailing.com.au


Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article
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Old 03-08-2016, 17:45   #114
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
Yes your correct. I would guess 95% of catamarans that become inverted are either race boats or catamarans not designed for offshore work.
You state just about and nearly every cruising mono is designed to self right. See we agree I just worded it differently.
I'm sure there are instances where it's hard to get a life raft out of its secured position and inflated on a cat. But at the same time, I don't think inflating a raft and stepping into it would be a cake walk on a mono in bad conditions. The still floating hull of the catamaran could be considered plan b.
We heard from an experienced boater who has 100's of thousands of bluewater miles under his belt including over 200,000 on multis and he says there's no doubt the catamaran was superior to the mono in extreme conditions. You say you've cruised on a 50' cat. What kind was it and how many bluewater miles have you sailed her?

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Thank you for your comment. I wonder what your thoughts are on having lifesaving rings on the lifelines attached each with a rope that is on the under stern of the boat. In case of inversion in high seas you would be tethered to the boat. I would also think an EBIRB that is mounted on the underneath somewhere on the stern (could be the underneath of the tender platform if you have one) also attached by rope so while floating it stays in proximity of the boat.

Practically speaking. If in the case of a threatening storm one could advise passengers to don the life rings and be prepared to jump into the water.

One other thing I would think a good thing to have on any blue water crossing would be immersion suits. Again in a bad potentially life threatening storm have all don the suites. If not floating doesn't get you, hyperthermia even in summer will, in many parts of the Atlantic.

Yours and others thoughts on these or other possible preparation strategies would be very much appreciated. These ideas may just be stupid and non workable so I would appreciate others to let me know what they think.
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Old 03-08-2016, 18:14   #115
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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If you lose the rig WHICH IS THE NORM in a capsize, you will capsize again and then maybe again. And then you will press the red button. If you can still locate it among the floating debris in the pitch dark interior.

And do not overworry the steel hatches. Very few are watertight while water pouring in thru the dorades, cockpit lockers and broken windows.

Cheers,
b.
Minimal water would come through my hatches, have bronze screw in water locks for the dorades that are lashed to them and 6 inch bronze ports.
Stayed Junk rigged with 2" steel gallows with large ropes to hold down the boom battens and yard. Large screws to hold sole hatches, I could go on and on with these. Things might be over built a bit but when is that enough.
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Old 03-08-2016, 19:56   #116
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Some years ago I was to visit a production plarform in the North Sea. My trip got delayed two days because they were making some emergency repairs. When I got out there, I was curious and found some guys still making repairs, on a lower deck. They were replacing some small equipment and making structural steel repairs. Seems a wave had struck that deck and done the damage.

We were 100 feet above the water. 100 feet.

So I researched these monster waves. While more common in the North Sea, they have been reported all over the globe. And while not well understood, they don't seem particularly weather related. Speculation, and a little science, is that they result from a rare confluence of constructive interference events. Can't be forecast.

So, cat or mono for a 100 foot wave. I'm thinking mono, like one of those that Maersk, or the US Navy, has. Or maybe a cruise ship. You know, a cruise ship has better quarters, endless food, an amusement park, entertainment, maintenance and repairs are handled by others (at least, most of the time). Everything is better on a cruise ship, except . . . it's not an adventure (and all the people).

Or stay home. Thing is, the whole time you're cruising, your life expectancy increases, because you're not driving a car.
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Old 03-08-2016, 20:40   #117
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Truth is very few sailors actually know exactly how their boat is built and how it compares with others. Most cruisers do in fact choose their boat based on the floor plan.
Very true and also understandable as we live on them mostly. Few ever see the conditions we are talking about. I know my next purchase has a high degree of livability in it.

My opinion is that in 99% of conditions most boats including production boats, cats or monos will look after themselves if you can keep one of the ends towards weather, even lying a hull mostly you will be fine ( not recommending this). Boats generally can handle more than we think.

I would assume that most here haven't experienced 50+ at sea, I haven't. Ive experienced mid 40s several times but not sustained for more than several hours. For me the most important part of those experiences is how I acted, people underestimate how that environment can alter your behaviour, very noisy, boat starting to slam, gunnel under water, very dark, pouring rain, the feeling of pressure on the boat, water coming on deck, tiredness.....how you react is more important than whether you are on a cat or mono, most important is staying onboard, it would be easy when the world goes to crap to make a mistake and fall overboard, the boat will still survive but you won't! In 40+ knots you could not get me on deck without a harness even if the sail was destroying its self, its just to easy to go overboard. You can argue a cat is more stable in this environment which is true, but they unpredictably jerk which can off foot you.

Personally I believe a cat with no mini keels and no sails up left alone, beam on or not would survive most things, and most likely safer than a mono, this is theory on my behalf as ive never sailed a cat in heavy weather. Recent experiences make me question how well a cat would cope with being caught out when winds go from 5-45k quickly? We can say a good sailor would reef early and not get caught BUT as humans we screw up, I know I do!

As Jim said earlier skill and luck pay a role, I would emphasise luck.

As a side note my partner was praying behind the wheel last time we got caught out ..lol. I was on deck (crawling) ,pitch black, pissing rain. I know how the boat is built, what she can take and where we were so wasn't overly concerned ( wouldn't say I was happy), my partner dosent understand these things thus she went looking for God..lol. and she's not religious!

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Old 03-08-2016, 23:45   #118
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Ocean sailing is about taking risks that are as well managed as can be. We circumnavigated the globe on a 47 foot Catana catamaran and experienced several sustained bouts of Force 9 and 10 conditions in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. I have previously circumnavigated on monos ranging from 33ft to 48ft and experiencing multiple gales and even storm force conditions in the Tasman Sea where we pitch-poled twice in one night after several knockdowns. Scary stuff but exciting as we were ready for the conditions. Always expect it to go pear shaped and have a plan based on experience.

I would rather be in a well founded, seaworthy, fast catamaran but would go to sea in either at the drop of a hat. Manage the risk and do not fall foul of the weather but if you do ensure you are prepared.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:02   #119
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Downwind with a series drogue bridled from each stern would be the safest option.
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Old 04-08-2016, 02:35   #120
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Ooooops, don't know what happened there, try this https://www.ec.gc.ca/meteo-weather/2...%203%20Eng.pdf
That's a good section, it's actually part of a really good on-line book on marine weather:
Environment and Climate Change Canada - Weather and Meteorology - Met 101: National Marine Weather Guide
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