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Old 03-08-2016, 03:08   #76
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

i was in 50+ kn wind but gust only...

capsize of cat is very dangerous for life as per stats.

This is my current thinking:

Before, one needs to close all above water thruhulls so water cant get in when inverted. And let most water get out of water tanks to increase buoyancy. Keep boat relatively light to float better.

It appears only possibilities are to get out, attach to pre rigged lines running under the bridgedeck in suitable suit for this type of scenario and manage situation, chafe, etc. In violent breaking seas hard to survive.

Other option is to stay or go inside front bedroom and hope to have enough buoyancy till storm over. Water surge is issue but I believe it can be managed with some preparation.

I plan to add some truck tubes or something similar to my spare parts to inflate them in preparation for SHTF to increase buoyancy and minimize surges.

Still I have not received reasonable answer what one does when mono rolled. If it does not come around in 30 secs is all over ?
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:58   #77
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Souther Wombat View Post
I made a mistake before in the link. This is the link I actually wanted to paste. It's worth reading and absorbing.

SailNet Community - View Single Post - How do you feel about catamarans?

As I said add the recent total loss again of all crew in the Leopard cat that inverted recently.

You can confuse the issue with statistics and there's a lot of issues to survival, not just what sunk but who survived.

A sinking monohull still lets you launch and access boats, life rafts grab bags and Epirbs. It's almost impossible in most multihulls as they are designed and you have to try and dive into the flooded hull for anything. The upturned hull is death trap in the same weather that casues it to overturn.

An inverted cat is an immediate disaster with no warning and no time to do anything. The death toll as a total loss of crew is alarming because designers don't allow access into an inverted cat or access to emergency gear.

When fit able bodied crews all die it begs the question of what happens to young children or as I am getting, the older and more infirm.

Chris White is not impartial he even says on his site or did until recently that no cat has ever flipped without sails up. That's not true.

An inverted monohull doesn't have a 100% chance it will right itself, but almost a 100% chance it will sink. An inverted multihull has almost a 100% chance it won't right itself, but a good chance it won't sink. When rescuers are looking for the scene of disaster is it easier to spot an inverted multihull or sunken monohull? How many monohulls a year are written of as lost at sea with not a trace left? Though some inverted multihulls won't be habitable after inverting they at least give the rescuers a starting point to look for survivors in a liferaft.


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Old 03-08-2016, 05:23   #78
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

I think more appropriate heading for this thread should have been "cats in heavy seas".. It was proven long ago that in flat seas the cats have no problem at all even at 70-80 kts; they simply slide away. Having sailed both, I believe that cats are much more exposed to the waves compared to monos. The people w/out cat experience tend to believe that motoring with cat is easier and more comfortable. False, unless the water is flat, because the cats take the same waves on hulls + under the bridge twice more than mono. On top, lack of inertia on cats (tendency to accelerate fast down the waves and decelarate when you hit the next wave) creates a jerk motion which is very unpleasant to say the least. This motion is much less if you manage to sail rather than motoring into the wind.
On safety side though, I still believe cats are safer with one exception; any cat below 40 ft with long fixed keels and being forced to take big breaking waves from the beam.


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Old 03-08-2016, 06:32   #79
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
An inverted monohull doesn't have a 100% chance it will right itself, but almost a 100% chance it will sink. An inverted multihull has almost a 100% chance it won't right itself, but a good chance it won't sink. When rescuers are looking for the scene of disaster is it easier to spot an inverted multihull or sunken monohull? How many monohulls a year are written of as lost at sea with not a trace left? Though some inverted multihulls won't be habitable after inverting they at least give the rescuers a starting point to look for survivors in a liferaft.........
I think you've been looking at too many racing boat accidents.

Read that last link I posted which is a synopsis of the QB storm. only one boat sank and that was due to inexperience and the skipper didn't know how to heave to, it was covered in detail in a book by by Kim Taylor I think.

Nearly every cruising monohull sailboat that meets certain construction and stability standards will survive being rolled with minimal water ingress.

And whether it instantly self rights or stays inverted is specific to it's design. In Europe it's measured in terms of what they call a STIX rating that covers stability and downflooding. There are very good assesments of self righting ability of monohulls. And just about every sensible cruising design these days re- rights instantly and dry inside if the hatches are shut.

Our own current monohull is fully compartmentalized and can even be holed or downflooded into any one compartment and not sink. You can pay for or construct what ever features you desire.

Cats should be compartmentalized too to keep them afloat in collisions and to raise the bridge deck when inverted it would be great if designers gave inverted access into such a compartment with an Epirb.

As for rescuers if as just happened your cat flips in a storm in some ocean and you are repeatedly washed off the inverted hull and cannot access Epirb or LifeRaft then the rescuers aren't going to come before you are long dead.
And that's what we are seeing, an alarming loss from inverted cats because people don't take this vulnerability of sudden unexpected inversion seriously. And it's experienced offshore multihull skippers that this happens to.

If you have to dive to get an Epirb stores or liferaft out of the flipped cat then experience shows it's next to impossible. Few people take this seriously. Probably because there are so many whimsical opinions about how terrific their boat is or imagining that a short lived gust gives them bragging rights about being in a 50 knot storm !

Anyway the safety issues put us into a monohull for the higher latitude cruising we currently do and we are so much more relaxed in heavy weather. Just inherent safety and a very forgiving boat when the sea gets nasty.
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:08   #80
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Souther Wombat View Post


I think you've been looking at too many racing boat accidents.

Read that last link I posted which is a synopsis of the QB storm. only one boat sank and that was due to inexperience and the skipper didn't know how to heave to, it was covered in detail in a book by by Kim Taylor I think.

Nearly every cruising monohull sailboat that meets certain construction and stability standards will survive being rolled with minimal water ingress.

And whether it instantly self rights or stays inverted is specific to it's design. In Europe it's measured in terms of what they call a STIX rating that covers stability and downflooding. There are very good assesments of self righting ability of monohulls. And just about every sensible cruising design these days re- rights instantly and dry inside if the hatches are shut.

Our own current monohull is fully compartmentalized and can even be holed or downflooded into any one compartment and not sink. You can pay for or construct what ever features you desire.

Cats should be compartmentalized too to keep them afloat in collisions and to raise the bridge deck when inverted it would be great if designers gave inverted access into such a compartment with an Epirb.

As for rescuers if as just happened your cat flips in a storm in some ocean and you are repeatedly washed off the inverted hull and cannot access Epirb or LifeRaft then the rescuers aren't going to come before you are long dead.
And that's what we are seeing, an alarming loss from inverted cats because people don't take this vulnerability of sudden unexpected inversion seriously. And it's experienced offshore multihull skippers that this happens to.

If you have to dive to get an Epirb stores or liferaft out of the flipped cat then experience shows it's next to impossible. Few people take this seriously. Probably because there are so many whimsical opinions about how terrific their boat is or imagining that a short lived gust gives them bragging rights about being in a 50 knot storm !

Anyway the safety issues put us into a monohull for the higher latitude cruising we currently do and we are so much more relaxed in heavy weather. Just inherent safety and a very forgiving boat when the sea gets nasty.

Yes your correct. I would guess 95% of catamarans that become inverted are either race boats or catamarans not designed for offshore work.
You state just about and nearly every cruising mono is designed to self right. See we agree I just worded it differently.
I'm sure there are instances where it's hard to get a life raft out of its secured position and inflated on a cat. But at the same time, I don't think inflating a raft and stepping into it would be a cake walk on a mono in bad conditions. The still floating hull of the catamaran could be considered plan b.
We heard from an experienced boater who has 100's of thousands of bluewater miles under his belt including over 200,000 on multis and he says there's no doubt the catamaran was superior to the mono in extreme conditions. You say you've cruised on a 50' cat. What kind was it and how many bluewater miles have you sailed her?


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Old 03-08-2016, 08:12   #81
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

This is the incident previously mentioned

Help Us, We're Upside Down In The Middle Of The Sea !
https://youtu.be/ufhyjVBL4Jw
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:42   #82
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
So you watch Gone with the Wynn's as well. I have read a great deal and seen many videos and have come to the conclusion rightly or wrongly that I would feel safer in a cat in the conditions you are describing.

50 knot winds is not a squall. It is a storm that you will see on radar before it hits. Immediately drop all sheets. Raise a storm jib and have your drogue ready for deployment on the stern. I would then follow the waves and to heck with your course bearings. Ride it out with following the waves with your drogue deployed if high seas and in need of slowing down. There is an argument if following this course of action to sail completely bare polls.

What I fear the most is multi directional wave turbulance leading to be smacked from the side or sliding sideways down a giant wall of water. Mono or twin your saying your prayers.

By the way I heard of some cats in the right sea state doing really well in 50 knot winds.
Excellent observation however sailing a catamaran has quite a number of differences to a mono hull sailing! I believe a Catamaran offer more safety than a mono if sailed by an experienced sailor sailing with Catamarans.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:01   #83
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
An inverted monohull doesn't have a 100% chance it will right itself, but almost a 100% chance it will sink. An inverted multihull has almost a 100% chance it won't right itself, but a good chance it won't sink. When rescuers are looking for the scene of disaster is it easier to spot an inverted multihull or sunken monohull? How many monohulls a year are written of as lost at sea with not a trace left? Though some inverted multihulls won't be habitable after inverting they at least give the rescuers a starting point to look for survivors in a liferaft.


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Where do some of your ideas come from. If you roll a mono its most likely it will continue around and not sink. Your idea that it has a 1OO% chance of sinking after being rolled suggests you need more experience and knowledge in these matters.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:02   #84
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Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Where do some of your ideas come from. If you roll a mono its most likely it will continue around and not sink. Your idea that it has a 1OO% chance of sinking after being rolled suggests you need more experience and knowledge in these matters.

And you need lessons in reading.
Please disregard that comment as I think you are confused in what I was trying to say, or more probably I didn't state it well. What I meant to say is not all monos that roll come back up, and if they don't come back up most will sink. Sorry for the confusion.


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Old 03-08-2016, 09:17   #85
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....
The decision to heave to or run off is factored by crew size and competency, fatigue, equipment, the presence of a drogue, the presence of properly sized fittings for the drogue, sea state and sail plan. There's no one answer, save that a boat that CAN heave to safely (early stages of a developing sea, for instance, with the storm movement in a safe quadrant) has a far more comfortable, rested crew than a boat that is actively sailed in deteriorating conditions by short-handers. Cat or mono, the crew is the weakest link. Preserve the crew and you have a shot at preserving the boat.
Agreed.

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I've layed to a 24' sea anchor in rough conditions when I had a steering problem in my 57' Kurt Hughes cat off of the Bahamas and couldn't believe how well that worked, wouldn't hesitate to use it anytime it got real nasty
I'm always amazed at the number of folks who want to run downwind for long periods of time,...and NOT utilize a parachute sea anchor off the bow.

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Old 03-08-2016, 09:46   #86
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

One of those threads .... ;-)

Catamarans in 50 knots of wind are just like anything else in 50 knots of wind.

OP is unlikely to base their choice of boat based on how the boat behaves in 50 knots of wind. And there is very small pool of data available on how any boat behaves in such conditions. Plenty of stories and opinions, near lack of research and conclusive findings. Except maybe bigger is better.

Then the old wind / waves mistake: mostly, it is the waves that bring trouble. On a cat you can additionally get tipped over by the wind alone. Unlikely with cruising cats but may require specific cat only habits and sailing techniques.

Some catamarans flip and some monohulls turn turtle. At about the same rate. Have your pick. Make sure the cat has them escape hatches. Most monos have none (except ocean racers).

Boats that READILY flip or get capsized should not be out there doing that. And if they are, this is their skippers choice and we can only respect (but not necessarily promote) that.


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Old 03-08-2016, 10:01   #87
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

I think I lost a comment? A little common sense goes a long way mono or multihull. Getting below the get your EPIRB after turtling in heavy weather? Anything may go down it not buttoned up. Sailing a mono with the garboard it the water is not strange with a mono, insanity with a multihull. I am not pro or con either having owned both. Good judgement needs to be used on either. We are not allowed the same amount of stupidity on the water.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:11   #88
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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I think it is good to explore some worst-case scenarios, then moderate it with the probability of these events happening. I find the most difficult people is feeling responsible for other people's lives.

If I made a poor decision and other people were affected, it would be hard to deal with those feelings. Parents have a Hobson's choice.
The worst case scenario is your boat sinks, you are in the water with no PDF, a shark eats you, a killer whale eats the shark, the killer whale dies, and sea gulls eat the beached killer whale's body.

But it could be worse, it could be raining.

One of my first memories of sailing was a plaque on his H28 saying "O God, thy sea is so great and my boat is so small". If 500 foot ships sink in storms at sea what makes anyone think a 50 foot boat, monohull or multihull, will not sink.

Are some boats more seaworthy than others, sure. But both multihulls and monohulls have made passages through terrible storms. You do have some control over the probability of being in a terrible storm. Avoiding the high latitudes is a good start, same for not making a passage during hurricane season. There are also several places where local knowledge greatly reduces the probability(not crossing the Gulf Stream when a cold front from the North is at it's max is one example).

Bottom line is it is hard for me to imagine a modern 50 foot boat, multihull or monohull, that would not be capable of making safe passages across oceans with one caveat. The passage needs to be well planned. Things like weather, crew, and the boat itself all need to be adequate.

When I see posts about boats going out in bad weather to race and getting in trouble my first thought is they got what they deserved. Way too many folks have been cruising for way too long with no problems. By the same token too many folks who were ill prepared, both in their skill level and the boats they were (often those boats were ill prepared due to lack of money) have gotten into real trouble.

My advice is for you to get the boat you feel comfortable on and don't worry about things; as long as you put in the effort to get a sound boat and plan your passages.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:20   #89
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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And you need lessons in reading.
Please disregard that comment as I think you are confused in what I was trying to say, or more probably I didn't state it well. What I meant to say is not all monos that roll come back up, and if they don't come back up most will sink. Sorry for the confusion.


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No problem, sometimes my reading skills are less than great. That said it very uncommon for a mono to sink after a roll, even when the boat is upside down for awhile as air is trapped inside the hull and the water cant replace it, if your thruhulls are open then eventually you would sink but you would be rolled back well before that is likely to happen. Monos sinking are much more likely when the hull is breached and the water flow cant be stopped. This can happen if you hit something at sea or if the rudder support system failed and opened up the rear section. Monos built with water tight bulkheads fore and aft are almost unsinkable. And like Cats I use the word almost.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:34   #90
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

The Amel super maramu 53 has 5 water tight compartments. She can roll all she wants and not sink. The Amel sharky 39,maramu 47 and mango 51 have only one compartment forward of the mast. I would think there's other manufactures that would offer safety.
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