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Old 09-08-2016, 23:39   #376
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sure. It would be really great if someone would discover a rig which works better than the old Bermuda setup which has been basically unchanged for half a century. I'm all for it if it works. If it's that good, then surely it will start to be built soon in some numbers, and we'll get to see some real world experience with it.

We've seen a lot of experimental rigs come and go, during my lifetime, none of which lived up to their promises to revolutionize sailing, all supported by different theories and test data. I am not expert enough to distinguish one more apparently great idea which however never makes it in real life, from that new rig which really does change everything. Therefore, I wait for others to actually use them in real life conditions, to start to form an opinion.


One factor at play is that often a great deal of development work is required to turn a great idea into technology of practical benefit to real life sailors. Where rigs are concerned -- I think we've seen this with wing sails. This apparently great idea has been under development already for decades, and is finally hitting prime time in America's Cup racing. Maybe this will trickle down to us eventually.

The one fairly big attempt to introduce a wing-like rig to cruising sailors -- the AeroRig -- did not succeed despite significant investment (all lost in the end) in development.
Just because the general public all use a particular product, in this case the bermuda rig dosent necessarily mean its the best product. Mostly we do what the rest do, we are herd creatures and most don't like stepping outside of the box. There has been a number of examples throughout modern times where the best product hasn't been able to penetrate a market that a inferior product has a very strong position in, understanding the consumers mind is the key to success and it's not often a rational mind.
My next boat most likely will have a bermuda rig, not because I think its the best cruising rig but because I'm limited in choice as the market as a whole has selected for me.

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Old 10-08-2016, 00:18   #377
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...

We've seen a lot of experimental rigs come and go, during my lifetime, ....
Chris White has done some interesting work with his mast foil rig on his 47 ft design, quite a number launched and sailing.

Chris White Mast Foil 47
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Old 10-08-2016, 00:51   #378
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sure. It would be really great if someone would discover a rig which works better than the old Bermuda setup which has been basically unchanged for half a century. I'm all for it if it works. If it's that good, then surely it will start to be built soon in some numbers, and we'll get to see some real world experience with it.

We've seen a lot of experimental rigs come and go, during my lifetime, none of which lived up to their promises to revolutionize sailing, all supported by different theories and test data. I am not expert enough to distinguish one more apparently great idea which however never makes it in real life, from that new rig which really does change everything. Therefore, I wait for others to actually use them in real life conditions, to start to form an opinion.


One factor at play is that often a great deal of development work is required to turn a great idea into technology of practical benefit to real life sailors. Where rigs are concerned -- I think we've seen this with wing sails. This apparently great idea has been under development already for decades, and is finally hitting prime time in America's Cup racing. Maybe this will trickle down to us eventually.

The one fairly big attempt to introduce a wing-like rig to cruising sailors -- the AeroRig -- did not succeed despite significant investment (all lost in the end) in development.
I'm sure there are some new configurations waiting for us. We have some new technologies like carbon fibre and dyneema, that may make some new scenarios viable. We may also introduce some old technologies. Catamarans have become more popular. Maybe we will one day use also proa sails (same generation old trusted stuff from the Pacific). Nothing will stop us inventing new sails and hulls, although we may be slow in finding and adopting new (to us) ideas .
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Old 10-08-2016, 00:56   #379
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Just because the general public all use a particular product, in this case the bermuda rig dosent necessarily mean its the best product. Mostly we do what the rest do, we are herd creatures and most don't like stepping outside of the box. There has been a number of examples throughout modern times where the best product hasn't been able to penetrate a market that a inferior product has a very strong position in, understanding the consumers mind is the key to success and it's not often a rational mind.
My next boat most likely will have a bermuda rig, not because I think its the best cruising rig but because I'm limited in choice as the market as a whole has selected for me.

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I don't know if I agree with the main premise here. If there is an objectively superior way to do something, it will eventually prevail. The "hump" is the capital required to get through all the development work needed to translate the great idea into something which is practically useful. NOT indeed the consciousness of conservative consumers. If Beneteau started selling boats with wing sails which pointed 5 degrees higher and sailed a knot faster and were easier to handle, the world would beat a path to their door. Conservatism would be right out the window and we'd be dropping our Bermuda rigs like mad.

But the problem is that we are a pretty small market, so it's hard to raise capital (or justify investment) into proper development of a complicated idea. There is a huge gap between idea and usable product, which can be bridged only with a lot of hard work, and often, a lot of investment capital.
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Old 10-08-2016, 00:59   #380
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
I'm sure there are some new configurations waiting for us. We have some new technologies like carbon fibre and dyneema, that may make some new scenarios viable. We may also introduce some old technologies. Catamarans have become more popular. Maybe we will one day use also proa sails (same generation old trusted stuff from the Pacific). Nothing will stop us inventing new sails and hulls, although we may be slow in finding and adopting new (to us) ideas .
Sure, and my sails are carbon laminate, and almost all my running rigging is Dyneema. I'm using low friction rings and spliced Dyneema strops instead of blocks, and I use twings instead of jib cars.

But these are all technologies which have been well developed and used successfully in real life, at least on racing boats.
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Old 10-08-2016, 01:02   #381
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Chris White has done some interesting work with his mast foil rig on his 47 ft design, quite a number launched and sailing.

Chris White Mast Foil 47
I'm familiar with that and have been following it with great interest. It looks like a great idea -- a logical development of the rotating mast idea, which is another way to overcome the aerodynamic problem of the mast.

Not much discussed is the aerodynamic problem of the foil of a furling headsail, but this is also a real problem of our rigs.
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Old 10-08-2016, 01:18   #382
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Yes.

The current Straitsman Was built in 2005.

Named after the first Straitsman in Cook Strait from 92 to 2004.
She rolled in the Yarra in the early 70's, I think. She was used between King Island and Melbourne until the owners sold her to Bluebridge.
Spot on, I believe they opened the stern door while coming up the river, that plus a fast turn, an open engine room door and a bunch of very heavy loose cows on the top deck sealed her fate... So mono's can capsize as well.

Interesting that despite the loss of three crew onboard the ship always had a good vibe, one of my favorite vessels with possibly the best captian I ever sailed with, Brian Pickering, an old time seafarer who went to sea in the last days of sail. I won't mention the other captain...
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Old 10-08-2016, 04:51   #383
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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I did put a Video up on Youtube, I dont know how to put it on here,
Its called,
Crossing the Tasman in a Gemini,

I was on my way home from Bundaberg, Qld, Heading for Port Macquarie which I didnt make, So I got to Forster instead, Arriving there 2-30 AM on a full out going tide,
It was urgent as my davits had all snapped and the whole lot was ready to drop into the sea, Including my back stay on the mast, and my dinghy as well,

Its about a 3 metre chop, I was sailing in, Also the Eastern current creates waves and a chop as you cross it,
Brians Gemini, 105 MC.
Is that a Gemini cat, as the ones that are built in Annapolis MD?
I knew Tony Smith and his wife quite well when I worked out of that area.
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:00   #384
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sure. It would be really great if someone would discover a rig which works better than the old Bermuda setup which has been basically unchanged for half a century. I'm all for it if it works. If it's that good, then surely it will start to be built soon in some numbers, and we'll get to see some real world experience with it.

We've seen a lot of experimental rigs come and go, during my lifetime, none of which lived up to their promises to revolutionize sailing, all supported by different theories and test data. I am not expert enough to distinguish one more apparently great idea which however never makes it in real life, from that new rig which really does change everything. Therefore, I wait for others to actually use them in real life conditions, to start to form an opinion.


One factor at play is that often a great deal of development work is required to turn a great idea into technology of practical benefit to real life sailors. Where rigs are concerned -- I think we've seen this with wing sails. This apparently great idea has been under development already for decades, and is finally hitting prime time in America's Cup racing. Maybe this will trickle down to us eventually.

The one fairly big attempt to introduce a wing-like rig to cruising sailors -- the AeroRig -- did not succeed despite significant investment (all lost in the end) in development.
You are correct, it is a real uphill battle to get new rig ides acepted

I keep chipping away at it as I do not have the funds to build it full size. So I keep an eye out for technologies and testing, and experimenting, that might lend support to the idea.

Hope to do a little bit of this soon, but I'm not even convinced it will make a convincing argument to a lot of skeptics
Scale Model Testing of Sailing Rigs, ...Outdoors - Boat Design Forums
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:13   #385
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Handicap Rules Designing Our Boats?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't know if I agree with the main premise here. If there is an objectively superior way to do something, it will eventually prevail. The "hump" is the capital required to get through all the development work needed to translate the great idea into something which is practically useful. NOT indeed the consciousness of conservative consumers. If Beneteau started selling boats with wing sails which pointed 5 degrees higher and sailed a knot faster and were easier to handle, the world would beat a path to their door. Conservatism would be right out the window and we'd be dropping our Bermuda rigs like mad.

But the problem is that we are a pretty small market, so it's hard to raise capital (or justify investment) into proper development of a complicated idea. There is a huge gap between idea and usable product, which can be bridged only with a lot of hard work, and often, a lot of investment capital.
I've contented for years that the racing/handicap system has also stymied boat design innovation:
...from my website
Quote:
Twenty five years ago (now 40 years), I was a younger fellow aspiring to become a sailing yacht designer. I was particularly interested in ocean going, cruising boats. I would devour every reference I could find on what made sailboats work. With keen interest I followed new developments on the racing circuits, believing that this was the incubator of fresh new ideas to speed our progress across the seas. Surely this breeding ground would bring significant evolution to the sport of sailing and the art of designing.

"Au contraire", I became disillusioned so soon. Bruce King's fantastic twin, asymmetrical, bilgeboard development, disappeared in little over a year. Prof. Jerry Milgrams cat-ketches were afforded a similar welcome. Truely different sail rig innovations were totally discouraged, and numerous other design innovations were "rated" out of existence by handicap racing rules. Ocean going boats were not being designed to "mother-ocean's rules", but rather to some arbitrary, man-created, racer/cruiser rule.

No thanks, let me look elsewhere. A group out of England, AYRS, Amateur Yacht Research Society came to my attention. A relatively new group of multihull enthusiast and their new publication, "Multihulls Magazine", also caught my attention. Here were some sources of true experimentation, innovation, and creativity; and subsequent evolution of the art of sailing, unbridled by handicap rules. Today, look at the French and their fantastic ocean racing boats both mono- and multi-hull; exciting innovation.


Evolution; nature's onward march to better itself by slowly rejecting less efficient characteristics of the whole, and either replacing them with more efficient offspring, and/or redefining the whole as an entity. Change comes so sloooow in traditional sailing. Look how long it took the traditionalist to adopt the fully battened mainsail that multihulls have long been exploiting for the better part of 25 years. Did they just resist acknowledging it because it was foreign to them, or was it the handicap rules. I suspect both, but there is no doubt to its superiority; ah evolution!


Now before you get too comfortable with this full-batten mainsail idea, realize that I do here intend to lay siege upon the sacred mainsail of the Bermudian rig.
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:22   #386
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Mastfoil

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm familiar with that and have been following it with great interest. It looks like a great idea -- a logical development of the rotating mast idea, which is another way to overcome the aerodynamic problem of the mast.
Are you familiar with his early experimentation?
videos ... https://chriswhitedesigns.smugmug.com/Other/Prototype/i-HkkHg72

Photos of original Mastfoil
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/mul...tml#post765940


Quote:
Not much discussed is the aerodynamic problem of the foil of a furling headsail, but this is also a real problem of our rigs.
Not sure what you are addressing here??
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:31   #387
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Re: Mastfoil

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
. . .Not sure what you are addressing here??
The roller furling foil causes air flow problems over the headsail, especially if the sail is partially furled on it. Why hank-on headsails perform so much better. A partially furled headsail is almost useless when going upwind. It's a significant problem with the standard bermuda rig with roller furling.
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:41   #388
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Mastfoil again

Chris White Atlantic 47, MastFoil - Page 5 - Boat Design Forums
Quote:
Originally Posted by pogo
I don't wanna explain anymore, i don't wanna Argue anymore
The MastFoil is , apart from the complex Wings of the AC-boats and the C-classic riggs, the First Really articulating rigg.
it is reefable, it's foil Alone can Act äs a stormsail, it's foil enables Manoubers Never thought of before.
The whole Concept shows smart and practical solutions in Detail. It is userfriendly .
It's a cruiser's rigg. it's Not slower than a conventional rigg , sometimes faster. It is easier.
i Don' Understand Why the advantages above should be Pressed into hard Numbers.
The advantages are enough, they Stand for themselves. it doesn't Need x more knots to Convince anyone who perhaps didn't Understand neither the Prínciple behind , nor the advantages.

i' m off.
pogo

Pogo, I agree with you. It is supremely innovative in a user friendly manner.

Brian
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:37   #389
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Headsail Foils

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The roller furling foil causes air flow problems over the headsail, especially if the sail is partially furled on it. Why hank-on headsails perform so much better. A partially furled headsail is almost useless when going upwind. It's a significant problem with the standard bermuda rig with roller furling.
I thought maybe that was what you were referring to. Let me lead you thru my thinking.

Originally I was familiar with Phil Bolger's 'staysail cat' rig that utilized just a single headsail on an aftmast configuration. His problem with sailing this vessel was its 'leading edge' being too sharp. I documented some of those comments here:
Aftmast rigs??? - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums

Quote:
Aftmast rigs??? - Page 18 - Boat Design Forums
From most of which I have read Bolger found this rig to be superior in its sailing performance, BUT it was hard to sail in non-steadystate conditions due to having to keep that 'very fine' leading edge of the headsail properly oriented.
So while I had been thinking of utilizing one of the various fancy new (at that time) headstay foil designs, I dropped back to thinking the round circular one was probably just fine. And it had another plus characteristic,...the round foils furl more evenly, and likely one could have a carbon version built at less cost, if so desired.

Quote:
Titanium Sails, the Holy Grail of Sail Material ?
I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. These materials should also allow for sailing under a partially furled sail. As I have said before I believe a hefty size ROUND furling 'tube' (headstay) should utilized to negate some difficulties of stalling the sail due to a 'too-sharp' leading edge to the headsails. Combine this type of headstay foil with a modern 'shaped foam insert' in the leading edge, and this sail should set pretty well in the roller-reefed condition. It would be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 30 knot range.
Granted this furled/reefed headsail is not the most optimum configuration, but could it be any less aerodynamically inferior to just a uni-rig sail behind a sizable mast tube,...and they seem to be able to go to weather
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:43   #390
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Popular V Best.

Anyone remember VHS v Beta ?


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