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Old 09-08-2016, 10:53   #361
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Re: Cats in BIG waves

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I can honestly say I have never heard whopper stories over a bear in a port.. or anywhere for that matter....
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Old 09-08-2016, 11:12   #362
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Sailors in the doldrums wearing helmets talking to bears floating in barrels of port...


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 09-08-2016, 12:34   #363
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Sailors in the doldrums wearing helmets talking to bears floating in barrels of port...


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that sounds exactly like my first equator crossing.
no joke!
but it was funny!
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Old 09-08-2016, 15:48   #364
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Re: Cats in BIG waves

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It used to be common for low latitude monohull sailors to wear crash bicycle helmets. Broken bones and head injuries from knock downs are par for the course in monohull big sea adventures. By the way. I don't know why some think it is appropriate to talk about racing cats flipping when on a cruisers forum. There just is not relationship between a racing cat and cruising cat especially when it comes to stability.

Anyway. I like the old scout motto. "Be Prepared" Wether your in a cat or a monohull it is being prepared and acting wisely that is the most important. For me I would rather be throwing out a drogue and sailing bare poles or with very little sheet sitting and having a warm coffee in the salon than siting bellow in a monohull being donning my crash helmet and being thrown around like a rag dole in the mouth of a pit bull.

But what do I know. I'm still looking for my ideal cruising cat and I make no pretense at being an expert. But I am a good student and a good learner. And I do have common sense. Something that seems to be surely lacking in some of these posts by some of the (not all, only some) ignorant mono sailors.

i have read extensively. Spoken to seasoned cat owners. And yes even seen cats on video in high seas. I hare learned a great deal from sinking, knock down and capsizing reports. By the way it is better to learn from others mistakes than having to learn them from your own experience. So some may say I have no right to make a comment on this issue. That by the way is usually the position taken by those who can't defend their positions or beliefs and are threatened by lets say a more intelligent approach to making decisions.

Experienced sailors I hold in the very highest of regard. Don't get me wrong there is nothing like real life experience to inform ones education.

But for me when I go and put down my hard earned dollars on my next sailing boat it will be done after coming to my own conclusion of what is safe, seaworthy and good for me.

In the meantime I will continue to learn and take in the advise of the wonderful sailors on this forum and always keep an open mind. But I will also disregard the nonsense that some so called old sea salts dish out based on ignorance and plain stupidity. The ones who lack the sense to research and learn from others in an intelligent and disciplined way.

To all the seasoned sailors that I have already leaned so much from on this forum I say thank you. To the ignorant prejudiced blow hards I say, I am sure you all would be a good source of whopper stories over a bear in a port.

Regards,
Chaya
" Oh it was horrendous in my mono, I doubt if a cat would have survived it" Typical mono sailors comment.

I've been in over 50 knots in open sea in everything from cats, monos, 40ft launch, gin palaces, fishing boats and ships. Over 45 years. The most dodgy was the launch, but i was getting paid for the delivery on time.
During one of our June bombs I was riding to a sea anchor in a 48ft steel ketch, offshore. Listening to all the returning race yachts running ashore, falling apart and sinking.
In the 86 one I was in a tanker going around North Cape. It was considerably more than 70 knots and questionable conditions even for small ships. The Navy guys had some good rolls doing the rescues.
Another one we were blast reaching down the coast in a 45 foot racing cat with way to much sail up. Not very intelligent, but we were young.

last winter we had 4 storms between East Cape and Lyttelton. Going into it on a ship wasn't pleasant, though safe. This winter was rather good until now.
Sure the wave heights were 5 to 6 metres, but offshore the crest distance is getting up to 100odd metres. (places like Wellington entrance, where the southerly fetch is from Antarctica, hitting the shallows at Wellington heads, is the only place where i have ever seen 10m seas, in a lifetime on the water) A small boat tends to ride up and down the hills. It is the smaller breaking crests from the local wind that cause problems. The video i put up before, of the Suilven leaving Wellington. The swell was 6m. There are, of course, other parts of the world where a long fetch meets the land, which are best avoided in a gale. Shallow water and reflected waves.


We joke about the wave heights reported by yachts, but they are not lying. It is simple geometry. When you are heading downhill towards a wave, and look at the mast from your cockpit, it does look like, over the spreaders.

The strongest winds I have been in, in open water, in my own 32 ft cat is 30 to 35, but downwind under full main and gib is like riding on rails, as you can see from my earlier video. Upwind we were down to reefed main and storm jib. Wouldn't get upwind in 50 knots, but would be happy downwind, provided there is sea room, or on a sea anchor.
When it was in race configuration, years ago, reaching up and down Auckland harbour in 50 knots, reefed of course, was part of the fun.
In gusts the boat absorbs the energy by going faster. Unlike a 110 foot steel monohull which I was on, as I have described before, which blew over in flat water, off Coromandel harbour, close to it's angle of vanishing stability.

New Zealand yachts are, of course, designed for the inevitable Sunday afternoon bash to windward, back home to Auckland for work. In a combined SW and sea breeze up to 35 knots. And an often steep wind against tide chop. Windward ability and ability to cope with a gale is a feature of most NZ designs.
Cruisers are always telling me that the Tasman was the roughest, if not the only rough, part of their circumnavigation. So boats which are fine in a Tasman gale, are likely to have no problems with the rest of their cruise.
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Old 09-08-2016, 16:04   #365
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Big Storm Adventure (years ago)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
What sailing vessel has the power to sail or motor into that,
You will find most sailing boats will be running before it,
Running in front of an ocean like that, Flattens it out a lot,
I dont have any problems with an ocean like that, Tiny bit of Genoa is all thats needed,
I have no idea on how a Mono would handle running in front of it, Whether it would get a beating or not,
Or a nice easy ride like the Cats get,
I was in a storm like that for 2 days. Left out of the Chesapeake Bay on Christmas Eve headed for the Virgins. Knew there was a good size frontal passage coming, but no idea it was going to be that bad. Luckily got out past the Gulf Stream before it hit. It blew a good 60-65 knts for what seemed like 2 days, but was probably only 30 hrs. The sea was just a little bit smaller than that (maybe), but the waves were higher than our masthead on a 47 foot wood ketch monohull, and the tops were blowing off of them a bit more than that video, and the streaks in the sea were much like that. My guess is the wind in that video is likely 75 plus. Those seas also appear to be a little closer spacing than I experienced in mid Atlantic, but perhaps that is viewing them coming on vs surfing them.

We started surfing the seas downwind as true as we could steer. Of course the problem there is the rotation of the surface of the sea at the tops of the waves is opposite the rotation at the bottom of the swells. That tries to steer you off to one side as you surf down the wave....into a broach possible. So you have to constantly steer the boat...did not have any autopilot, and don't know if I would have trusted it in those conditions (doubtfull).

My ketch at the time had a smaller staysail in a cutter arrangement. That's all the sail I flew. There came a time when I became concerned that this sail was taking a real beating and would not last for the trip. I decided I had enough wind to run under bare poles, so why not take that sail down? Did it, BUT very quickly decided to put it back up. We had slowed down just a little to much, and the tops of those big waves chasing us were occasionally breaking over our cockpit and flooding down into the engine room thru the cockpit floor hatch (and ruining my new diesel engine).

Had 3 of us onboard, but only 2 experienced sailors. Those 4 hr shifts got pretty tiring after a while. There became a concern during the storm that we were taking on water somewhere (WHERE!!). This boat had never leaked! Turns out that during the storm something managed to hit one of the faucets in the head, or galley, and we emptied all of our freshwater
into the bilge (couldn't hear the pump running due to all the other noise).

Eventually got to tired to steer, and the wind had abated quite a bit, but the sea was still running. Nice thing about a ketch, I put a little bit of mizzen sail up 9that forced us to head up into the wind,...and I sheeted that staysail so it backwinded the bow,...that forced the boat off the wind. Those two sails did their job to hold us in place, and just pointed slightly into the weather. Got a good 8 hr rest, then continued the trip.

That experienced convinced me of the viability of a ketch rig, and that I should always carry a parachute anchor onboard. Drogues are find in many instances, but you still have to steer while using them. Question is can the skipper hold out long enough in a storm, and can you make the change from drogue to parachute in a big following sea??
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Old 09-08-2016, 16:17   #366
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
If there were 20 cruising Multi's in Whangarei when I was there in 1992 they were well hidden.

Thanks for jogging my memory, though. I DID see a 32 ft catamaran in Penhryn in 1992. It was on the beach, with holes in both hulls because its owner had run it into one of the bommies in the lagoon. I went over to give him a hand, but he didn't want my help. The locals told me that he damaged it on purpose. He had single-handed from Tahiti because his crew had left him. He didn't think he could complete his voyage to South Africa in that boat, so he was trying to do an insurance job.

When I returned to Penhryn in 1997, I asked what had become of the cat. The story was that the insurance company called his bluff, sent a surveyor, and refused to total the boat. They loaded it onto the inter-island freighter (big event in Penhryn, and I saw the pictures) and shipped it to NZ for repair. It is probably still in storage in Whangarei.

Apologies for the thread drift, but this thread has long since ended its useful life.
In 92 you would have been correct. It was a couple of years later that the number of cruising cats really took off.

Just did a mental add up of cats and monos in Whangarei at the moment. With a broken ankle i am not going around to have a look today. But, I think, after my hobble around on Monday, the totals are about half each at the moment. Not all are cruisers, and many of them stay for a year or two. A lot have already left for the Pacific.
Murrays yard is chocca with multis, as are the visiting multi moorings in the Town basin.

Another Pacific anecdote is the Denis Ganley steel keeler which was hauled off a reef in the Pacific minus its keel. It was then sailed several hundred miles, sans keel, against the designers advice. Rumour has it, that she is still sailing around with a keel full of old sewing machines and assorted junk.
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Old 09-08-2016, 17:02   #367
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Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Interesting. I'll have another look when these are beyond the alpha test stage.

I note that they've chosen a good Comet boat, but still rather old fashioned design with normal genoa and no roachy main. I expect the comparison would look different with a boat with high aspect jib and roachy main.
Another link to the test on those 'unconventional rigs'
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ventional_rigs

Quote:
The traditional sloop yacht rig used as a reference is a Comet 51a Vallicelli Yacht Design & Co 51 feet IMS cruiser-racer sailing yacht, winner of 2007 IMS Italian Championship (fig. 4).
Wind tunnel tests were performed using a 1:10 scaled model of this yacht where a mainsail with the maximum IMS rule allowed roach and 100% non overlapping jib have been used (appears to have a roachy main)
Click image for larger version

Name:	Std <a title=Sloop Configuration.jpg Views: 35 Size: 44.0 KB ID: 129278" style="margin: 2px" />
Quote:
The results obtained confirm that the double jib
configuration performance is better than the standard
sloop up to 10 knots TWS, while the single jib
performance is pretty similar to sloop configuration. In
windier conditions all the unconventional rig solution are
faster and in particular the double jib with overlap gives
the best performance
The point I am trying to make is that the two jib (overlap) configuration fared very well in comparison to a fairly good boat with the traditional mainsail. And even if the results are 'optimistic' this two headsail configuration appears to be very reasonable choice for a CRUISING vessel that will go to windward, regardless of what the traditionalist want to ignore.
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Old 09-08-2016, 18:01   #368
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

I did put a Video up on Youtube, I dont know how to put it on here,
Its called,
Crossing the Tasman in a Gemini,

I was on my way home from Bundaberg, Qld, Heading for Port Macquarie which I didnt make, So I got to Forster instead, Arriving there 2-30 AM on a full out going tide,
It was urgent as my davits had all snapped and the whole lot was ready to drop into the sea, Including my back stay on the mast, and my dinghy as well,

Its about a 3 metre chop, I was sailing in, Also the Eastern current creates waves and a chop as you cross it,
Brians Gemini, 105 MC.
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Old 09-08-2016, 18:39   #369
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Re: Big Storm Adventure (years ago)

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SNIP
Had 3 of us onboard, but only 2 experienced sailors. Those 4 hr shifts got pretty tiring after a while. There became a concern during the storm that we were taking on water somewhere (WHERE!!). This boat had never leaked! Turns out that during the storm something managed to hit one of the faucets in the head, or galley, and we emptied all of our freshwater
into the bilge (couldn't hear the pump running due to all the other noise).

SNIP
Which is why you flip the switch on the breaker to the water pump when you leave the dock on a passage. If you have to flip the switch back during the passage for water as soon as you are finished you flip the switch back.

From Boating for Noobies 101.
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Old 09-08-2016, 18:58   #370
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

for Mr B -- searched but no video with title of "Crossing the Tasman in a Gemini"
your user name in Youtube is BriansGemini105MC?
that user has 2 videos related to Gemini crossing Tasman.


do you have any photos of the failures? post in a new thread if available as davit construction is of interest.
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Old 09-08-2016, 20:06   #371
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Well yes, but in 30years at sea sometimes they come and get you. despite all attempts to avoid it.
I would rather meet them mid ocean though.
Just outside Wellington harbour really does limit your options.

Ha, I used to occasionally work on her as a 2nd mate. Its the Suliven, I mostly worked on the smaller ship the Straitsman. It sure gets nasty out there at times. Tough ships and crew. When calculating stability we used to have to include a free surface moment for the cows on the top deck. The high speed condor wavepeircing catamaran stuggled where we were fine....
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Old 09-08-2016, 20:19   #372
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by UpOnStands View Post
for Mr B -- searched but no video with title of "Crossing the Tasman in a Gemini"
your user name in Youtube is BriansGemini105MC?
that user has 2 videos related to Gemini crossing Tasman.


do you have any photos of the failures? post in a new thread if available as davit construction is of interest.
They are both my video's, Its the same one posted twice,
Day seven from Bundaberg,
Just type it into google, It comes up,
I am sailing beam onto the waves,

No, I dont have any piccys of the broken davit welds,
They were show welds, Looked very pretty but with no strength in them,
They were just wash welds, Fifty years of welding in all mediums, I am a professional welder, and certificated world wide, So I do know,

And the continual hammering and pounding from the ocean, the weight hanging off the back of the boat just broke the welds off,
It had the dinghy hanging there about 5 feet of the deck, so the leverage would have been quite strong,
Plus I have a hammock out there as well and I spent a lot of time in it,
Two solar panels on top of the Davits,
So it had a lot of weight on it,
Coastal cruising with no big seas, they probably would not have snapped off,
But thats just conjecture,
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Old 09-08-2016, 20:24   #373
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Ha, I used to occasionally work on her as a 2nd mate. Its the Suliven, I mostly worked on the smaller ship the Straitsman. It sure gets nasty out there at times. Tough ships and crew. When calculating stability we used to have to include a free surface moment for the cows on the top deck. The high speed condor wavepeircing catamaran stuggled where we were fine....
The Straightsman, Is that the same one that sank in the Yarra in Melbourne with its doors open early,
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Old 09-08-2016, 21:26   #374
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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The Straightsman, Is that the same one that sank in the Yarra in Melbourne with its doors open early,
Yes.

The current Straitsman Was built in 2005.

Named after the first Straitsman in Cook Strait from 92 to 2004.
She rolled in the Yarra in the early 70's, I think. She was used between King Island and Melbourne until the owners sold her to Bluebridge.
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Old 09-08-2016, 23:29   #375
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Re: Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
. . . The point I am trying to make is that the two jib (overlap) configuration fared very well in comparison to a fairly good boat with the traditional mainsail. And even if the results are 'optimistic' this two headsail configuration appears to be very reasonable choice for a CRUISING vessel that will go to windward, regardless of what the traditionalist want to ignore.
Sure. It would be really great if someone would discover a rig which works better than the old Bermuda setup which has been basically unchanged for half a century. I'm all for it if it works. If it's that good, then surely it will start to be built soon in some numbers, and we'll get to see some real world experience with it.

We've seen a lot of experimental rigs come and go, during my lifetime, none of which lived up to their promises to revolutionize sailing, all supported by different theories and test data. I am not expert enough to distinguish one more apparently great idea which however never makes it in real life, from that new rig which really does change everything. Therefore, I wait for others to actually use them in real life conditions, to start to form an opinion.


One factor at play is that often a great deal of development work is required to turn a great idea into technology of practical benefit to real life sailors. Where rigs are concerned -- I think we've seen this with wing sails. This apparently great idea has been under development already for decades, and is finally hitting prime time in America's Cup racing. Maybe this will trickle down to us eventually.

The one fairly big attempt to introduce a wing-like rig to cruising sailors -- the AeroRig -- did not succeed despite significant investment (all lost in the end) in development.
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