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Old 08-08-2016, 09:39   #301
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
How about this cruising rig?....low aspect, but decent size sail area
Mainless Rig, all roller furling, reefing
Don't use the Main?

Shorter Rigs, Lower Aspect Ratios

Attachment 129133Attachment 129134Attachment 129135

The points I was trying to make for my aft-mast rig with its big genoa is that I was trying to meet a big variety of conditions with a limited sail inventory (my 3 sails are the only ones I have onboard, and are set up to be reduced in size by roller furling/reefing, not hoisted or replaced by alternatives).

As such I wanted a good size genoa sail for those often encounter 5-15 knot winds that we would really like to sail in rather than turning on the engine(s). This size sail, in those conditions, should be relatively easy to handle, ...(and when out cruising I would NOT be looking at getting into tacking duals). I was seeking to get the best from this genoa sail by giving it the best help from the 'cutter jib' (mainstaysail as I refer to it), and providing for its best dumping traits as described by Tom Speer.

I'm also quite convinced that modern sail materials such as the tape-drives or these Titanium sails would allow for a very light weight sail that would maintain their shape even in higher wind conditions. These materials should also allow for sailing under a partially furled sail. As I have said before I believe a hefty size ROUND furling 'tube' (headstay) should utilized to negate some difficulties of stalling the sail due to a 'too-sharp' leading edge to the headsails. Combine this type of headstay foil with a modern 'shaped foam insert' in the leading edge, and this sail should set pretty well in the roller-reefed condition. It would be nice to be able to utilize this reef-able genoa up to the 25+ knot range.

For storm conditions that we see coming we slip another sail over that furling genoa:
Storm Sail Configurations

***********************************


PS: Lagoon appears ready to redefine the mainsail


***********************************

The Ketch-Rigged Cat
I can't judge what that rig would be like.

However -- one thing for sure I don't like are genoa headsails. They don't trim right off the wind, and have far too much drag on the wind. For a larger headsail give me a yankee any day, but for normal use in my latitudes, a high aspect blade jib is the thing. That and a roachy mainsail.

"Reef-able headsail" is a bit of an oxymoron. A reefed headsail of any type, and especially a genoa, doesn't work upwind. So the headsail needs to be chosen to have an appropriate wind range for getting upwind in the range of conditions you expect. If the wind is above that wind range, and you need to get upwind, you are screwed. What I do is change to the staysail, and so you need a jib which can work unreefed up until the lower end of the staysail's wind range (which is about 30 knots on my boat).

Lack of a mainsail makes this conundrum even worse, making the rig even less flexible.

It won't matter if you don't care about getting upwind, but I do.
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Old 08-08-2016, 09:50   #302
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

By the way that 'big genoa' of mine is only 105%.

And nobody said the sails needed to be this big.

Have a look at these Wind Tunnel Test, & photos of headsail rigs tested....
Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs
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Old 08-08-2016, 10:02   #303
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
By the way that 'big genoa' of mine is only 105%.

And nobody said the sails needed to be this big.

Have a look at these Wind Tunnel Test, & photos of headsail rigs tested....
Wind Tunnel And CFD Investigation Of Unconventional Rigs
Interesting. I'll have another look when these are beyond the alpha test stage.

I note that they've chosen a good Comet boat, but still rather old fashioned design with normal genoa and no roachy main. I expect the comparison would look different with a boat with high aspect jib and roachy main.
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Old 08-08-2016, 13:20   #304
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another case for Mainsail-less

...just looking back thru this subject thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1paulg View Post
Agree with Jim - if you only reefed twice in a 2 day passage you got off lightly - unless there was very steady conditions through out would be unusual .
I have always believed the main helps to some degree albeit to a lessening degree as you sail deeper and was a little surprised recently when sailing deep with a gennaker (160 awa) and struggling to keep the gennaker setting so we dropped the main and sailed gennaker alone- not only did our boat speed stay the same , we sailed even deeper touching 180 . Was an eye opener as coming from a racing background I always believed that there would be some benefit from the main..
That has changed my approach to sailing deep downwind from now.
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Old 08-08-2016, 15:50   #305
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
An important point here is that some cats might need much less power in the first place.

If the cat is large and with narrow enough hulls and is not overloaded, you need very little power to move it through the water, and it would be much less of a challenge to avoid overpowering it.

Why then do they make such cats with giant rigs? I never understood that. Hyper-performance in light winds is not what the voyaging sailor needs.
But it might be what some people want. Or the ability to keep sailing when everyone else is motoring.

When the wind picks up you can reef.
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Old 08-08-2016, 15:58   #306
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
But it might be what some people want. Or the ability to keep sailing when everyone else is motoring.

When the wind picks up you can reef.
Of course some people will want it. Most, probably.

But you can't "just reef", when you need to sail upwind, beyond the wind range of your giant rig. Roller reefed headsail doesn't really work upwind, plus you still have all the windage. Reefing a roller furling headsail is OK off the wind, though.

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Old 08-08-2016, 16:03   #307
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Re: another case for Mainsail-less

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
...just looking back thru this subject thread...
I don't use the main much downwind, if there's enough wind to drive the boat with the headsail alone. Sometimes pole it out with the boom. Otherwise, wing and wing. Headsails with high cut clews work better for this.

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Old 08-08-2016, 16:06   #308
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Of course some people will want it. Most, probably.

But you can't "just reef", when you need to sail upwind, beyond the wind range of your giant rig. Roller reefed headsail doesn't really work upwind, plus you still have all the windage. Reefing a roller furling headsail is OK off the wind, though.

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Most boats like this have staysails though, and deep reefing points.
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Old 08-08-2016, 17:24   #309
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Roller Furling Genoa

Roller Furling Genoa
Over the years there has been many naysayers expressing reservations about roller REEFING sails.

I just ran across a few little discussions/references to roller furling genoas utilizing more modern sail materials.
Quote:
Off the wind, the boat went well with the genoa rolled to half-size and the main double reefed.
News ‚ÄĒ UK Sailmakers

Nick Southward and UK Sailmakers' Barry Hayes have become the first team to race the 590-mile Hong Kong to Manilla race double-handed, and they did it on a 36-foot J/109 named WHISKEY JACK. Most of the race for WHISKEY JACK was sailed in 30 knots of wind -- with 40-45 knots for almost the whole second day of race. Sailing against fully-crewed teams, the duo finished third in IRC 2. They broke and fixed a lot of gear, but their sails were not on the "to repair" list


Passagemaker Titanium - Carbon Single-sided Taffeta


Titanium Beidseitig Taffeta - Cruising Genua
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Old 08-08-2016, 17:27   #310
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Originally Posted by Brian Hancock
Most offshore passage making is reaching with the wind on your beam or slightly aft. The best rig for this is a cutter or some other double headsail rig where you are double-headsail reaching with a yankee or genoa with a raised clew, and a staysail. Wind flowing between the sails is increased because you have split the foretriangle into two and with it comes an increase in performance. You also get a great way to change gears as the wind fluctuates. You can balance the foretriangle by reefing and un-reefing the headsail and if a squall comes through you can roll the genoa away completely and ride it out on the staysail and reefed main.

For a cutter rig you need an inner-forestay. Many cruising boats have the stay but if not check with the boatís designer or a rigger to see if you can add it without undue pressure on the mast. If you prefer to avoid installing running backstays, which may be required with an inner stay, consider adding a Solent stay which attaches much closer to the masthead. I prefer any sail set on this stay to be hanked-on rather than set on a furling unit. Call me old-fashioned but I like the security of hanks. This stay will be where you set your storm jib and nothing says bulletproof more than hanks. You can even have your sailmaker make up a special bag that wraps around the inner-forestay where you can stow your staysail so that itís always at the ready. These days, the inner stay can be made of Dyneema Dux or Spectra which is much lighter than wire.

Going upwind is a challenge for many cruisers and many try and get away with a single roller-furling headsail. For day-sailing this may be OK, but if you are going blue water you need at least two working headsails. Hereís why. You need sail area to get your boat moving in light winds and with sail area comes sail camber. Larger sails have a deeper camber to provide power. The problem with camber is that you canít easily get rid of it when you reef the sail with a furling unit. Most furling headsails have a foam luff that acts to bulk up around the headstay with the bulk there to remove shape from the sail and it does help, but only to a degree. For example a 135% LP (luff perpendicular) sail can be safely reefed to around 100%, no more. Aside from the camber there is the problem of fabric strength. Light wind sails are made from lighter fabric which is just not suitable for heavier wind conditions. You need a flat sail shape and a robust fabric when the breeze is up. Note that this is not as important when reaching but we are talking about going to windward now. I suggest that you have a 130-135% Working Genoa that reefs to 100-105% and a second one that can take over from there and reef down to around 80-85%. Beyond that you can ride things out on the staysail with the headsail rolled away.

Clew height is always a subject of debate and for good reason. A lower clew headsail gives you better performance but itís not a good idea for a cruising headsail for a number of reasons. First you need visibility under your headsail so that you can see ships and other boats. A raised clew not only helps with visibility but it also allows waves that crash across the deck to wash out to leeward rather than get scooped up by the sail. Also, the higher the clew the less you have to adjust the lead position and you do need to adjust your lead position each time you reef or unreef the sail. If you simply roll sail area away and leave the lead in the same place you will end up with the leech of the sail twisting off and flapping in the breeze which in turn fatigues the fabric. One of the best things you can do to make sailing easier and improve performance is to add a jib car adjuster. Itís a simple addition and one that allows you to keep your headsail trimmed properly. Well trimmed sails last longer.

Light winds have always presented a challenge to cruising sailors and many opt for the engine to keep things moving. There are some solutions and one of the best things to happen to cruisers is the the anti-torque line and the fact that itís coming down in cost. The other good thing is light, low stretch fabrics like a light laminate. You can make a very good Gennaker out of nylon but you can definitely extend the wind range with a light laminate. The sail is set outside of the headstay meaning that you can leave your genoa in place furled up on the stay. A good Cruising Code-0 can be carried as close as 35-40 degrees apparent which is fine if you are cruising. The wind comes up and you simply roll it away, drop it to the deck and set the headsail.

http://hancockarticles.blogspot.com/...agemaking.html
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Old 08-08-2016, 18:04   #311
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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.. .......and yes, I am calling you out.....what is your provable experience? .....you have no relevant experience and am talking from an armchair perspective.

I asked you about specific facts on your alleged experience -again this was ignored. Why? Because you cannot provide what doesn't exist, or need time to try and fabricate something. What is the name of your boat and where is it registered? What club do you belong to? Where have you been? You'll have paperwork to demonstrate this, of course. Cruising permits/receipts? Clearing in/out papers?

..
Your experience is clearly demonstrated - gleaned from YouTube and reading ........... I am away sailing - doing what you waffle about from your armchair.
You have a great habit of attributing statements to others and accusing them of falsification (aka Weavis).

You state that I claim it was serene under heavy conditions. Where did I ever say that? Yet another attempt to divert attention from your fairy tale fabrications....smoke and mirrors. You have finally also looked up the Beaufort scale - you should have done that before alleging Weavis was fibbing. Anyone with any experience shall look at that video and appreciate that is not showing around 20 knots. That was a real nail in your coffin to make that claim. 20 knots is ideal sailing conditions - and the Weavis video did not show anything like ideal conditions.

Read the posting from the fellow involved with insurance to get further information about the rubbish you write on fatalaties.....but that doesnt sit comfortably with your hyperbole so simply ignore that.

If you want information, then people on this forum will freely share their experiences - but stop writing posts that pretend you are something that you are clearly not.

Frankly, you are a total Walter Mitty character that does not warrant further communication with - you write total and utter nonsense, contribute nothing meaningful, all in the typical manner of the proverbial armchair sailor.
Which is just more Ad hominem.

I've seen abysmal survival conditions in 35 knots. To pretend that 50 knots is a trivial event in any boat is wrong.

I decided not to post anything personal, had put together pictures and an account that ran to several pages but I decided it was going to be counter productive. It would just drive the discussion into a personal slinging match with people like you about seamanship which is the usual response to people who came unstuck in cats. Even the skipper who had the Snowgoose flip at anchor had some cat owners on forums suggesting that he was somehow a poor seaman.

That's why I asked you to stick to facts rather than insults in lieu of any sensible discussion. If you document everything so well and are prepared to write so much about your exploits why are you shy about documenting the storm you claim you "read books and enjoyed the view" so I'm calling you out on that first if your ride was level there were no cross seas that suggests land close by, blocking any underlying swell. Again I'll ask, prove me wrong.

You talk of armchair experts and you really believe that video shows force 10 wind ? That will be a good example.
Also what did you think when a previous poster said that he'd been in 50 knots and that seas were flat in 50 knots or that he'd never seen a breaking wave at sea in deep water ? And this was to someone seeking advice. And you remained silent, or do you believe that account too I'm curious ?

It was after those comments I started posting as it's quite clear that people who believe incorrectly they have had experienced a storm can misguide others. Up to now I've been content to read an filter the BS.

A fully developed gale is bad enough, a storm is not what is being portrayed here.

Go back to the video In force 10 there is no clear visibility the boat would be wet, the cloths and tags not gently fluttering and crests on whitecaps don't do what they are doing there. It looks very similar to the sea state you get all year round in the South Pacific trades.

As for Cats being unsafe when inverted in heavy weather you seem rather biased about sea anchors and storm tactics wrt not running under drogues. The MCA study looked at nearly 70 multihull inversions and wrote an exhaustive detailed report. You've never read it ?

And from now on I'm nothing more than an analyst looking for facts, forget trying to get me to prove I have a boat. It's irrelevant.
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Old 08-08-2016, 18:07   #312
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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............ I may be wrong but weren't the majority of the monos that have been losing their keels iso certified?

I had to ask about that so Iím sorry itís a bit tardy but no, they were mostly built to the older ABS Offshore yachts which was too weak for GRP laminates. The standard was upgraded so later boats were much stronger but despite being advised most owners didn't increase the laminate thickness. Other examples were designers failing to meet ISO.

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Old 08-08-2016, 18:49   #313
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post

Originally Posted by Brian Hancock
Most offshore passage making is reaching with the wind on your beam or slightly aft.

That Brian guy he made a typo. Or did he intentionally omit "my" before "offshore"?

I think most offshore passage making is running and broad reaching, the rest seems beating.

Beam reaching. A good joke. Lake sailing.

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Old 08-08-2016, 18:55   #314
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Brian Hancock..........
http://hancockarticles.blogspot.com/...agemaking.html

I agree with him on hanks. We like hanks on headsails with hanks you can throw the halyard off and claw down the sail when you see a squall coming. We've lost a few furled sails with squalls and have often removed the furlers when we bought new sails.

Currently We have a genoa and a yankee as two options on the double headstays shown and they stay hanked on when crusiing and drop into bags. We also really like a boomed staysail which we hadn't had before, only loose footed.

For light air we've always used a MPS too wary to fly a spinnaker short crewed. Now with our current mono with a ketch rig we basically fly an MPS from the mizzen and the main mast which makes for a large light sail area that really drives the boat well in light air.
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Old 08-08-2016, 22:59   #315
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds



An interesting video relating to weather forecasting and catamaran sailing in some heavier weather.

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