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Old 07-08-2016, 15:42   #271
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
There's quite a bit of hyperbole around about cats flipping.

The understatement of the century.
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Old 07-08-2016, 17:48   #272
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Mono's dont flip over in Races, They may lose a few crew members, washed over the side,

NO? Take a look at




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Old 07-08-2016, 17:54   #273
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
What utter drivel. Not worth responding to. This posting clearly has zero personal experience but has been reading some novels. If you want to learn about cats and bad weather dont come to the forum with such critical preconceived idea's and statements. ..........
It's so hard to have a sensible discussion about multihulls which this thread shows too well. The tactic of resorting to Ad hominem attacks is the usual last resort when undefendable prejudices are challenged. It's just a debating tactic not part of any sensible discussion.

Stick to verifiable facts. There's a lot of opinions but facts speak for themselves. And the one thing that's quite clear is that there is very little experience with real offshore fully developed heavy weather at storm force. That's 50 knots and over gusting up to 40 % more. Look up your Beaufort chart for force 10 and tell me that's the conditions you found so serene.

I still see no one prepared to admit that current production models of cats have an abysmal survival rate if they are inverted in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services. That's a disturbing fact that people don't want to know, and that probably the same type of people (who are invariably very experienced cat skippers) end up dying more commonly that newcomers when it does go to custard.

The examples of modern cats inverting in heavy weather well away from rescue services all have a similar experience although comparitivly rare and I've never said otherwise than it's a low statistical likelihood. But as a risk assessment it makes the risk extreme.

Facts.
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Old 07-08-2016, 18:21   #274
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by Souther Wombat View Post
It's so hard to have a sensible discussion about multihulls which this thread shows too well. The tactic of resorting to Ad hominem attacks is the usual last resort when undefendable prejudices are challenged. It's just a debating tactic not part of any sensible discussion.

Stick to verifiable facts. There's a lot of opinions but facts speak for themselves. And the one thing that's quite clear is that there is very little experience with real offshore fully developed heavy weather at storm force. That's 50 knots and over gusting up to 40 % more. Look up your Beaufort chart for force 10 and tell me that's the conditions you found so serene.

I still see no one prepared to admit that current production models of cats have an abysmal survival rate if they are inverted in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services. That's a disturbing fact that people don't want to know, and that probably the same type of people (who are invariably very experienced cat skippers) end up dying more commonly that newcomers when it does go to custard.

The examples of modern cats inverting in heavy weather well away from rescue services all have a similar experience although comparitivly rare and I've never said otherwise than it's a low statistical likelihood. But as a risk assessment it makes the risk extreme.

Facts.

So the facts you come across is an old thread on a sailing forum that shows 6 catamarans that have inverted with casualties? I don't believe there were any links involved, and if there are only 6 catamarans that have inverted in a storm with casualties that seems like a great safety record. You also state you want to see proof of loses from a iso certified offshore monohull. I may be wrong but weren't the majority of the monos that have been losing their keels iso certified? Where they certified until they lost their keels then lost their certification once their keels fell of? I believe there were some casualties involved? I also asked you what type of catamaran you owned and your experience and miles on it.....I guess that fell on deaf ears. Oh wait......maybe that was the catamaran you didn't like because it wouldn't motor to windward in a gale? Should of tried the sails.


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Old 07-08-2016, 18:21   #275
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Just think of Michel Desjoyeaux who shamelessly flirts with both modalities. How come a world champion will just keep on sailing while us ignoranti keep on talking?

He will sail thru 50 knots in anything anyhull hardly noticing the wind eased this much. And in boats that weigh in at a fraction of a Lagoon and carrying SA maybe ten times as large.

Meanwhile some cruising cats are flipping upside down killing all the joy!

I can tell you. It is not in the cats then.

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Old 07-08-2016, 18:49   #276
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

(But there is not only the question of objective safety, but also how safe it feels.)

That is purely subjective depending on perception. Why USAIans are terrified of terrorists, despite a much greater likelihood in the States of being killed by a dairy cow.
Being trained in ship stability and engineering I prefer to go by the numbers.

(i have sailed a catamaran in heavy weather and it made me nervous. The thing is you can't feel the press of canvas because of the lack of heeling, and the lack of heeling means there is no mechanism for dissipating the excess energy, so it just builds up until you go over.)

Similarly I feel nervous in a keel boat going downwind, always on the verge of broaching. It is what you are used to. In your case you are probably safer in a monohull as you haven't learnt what an overcanvassed multihull feels like.
At least one of the large multihull capsizes here was a bunch of experienced mono sailors first time cruising in a cat. They all survived unscathed, by the way, despite winds over 50 knots.

(In the latitudes where I sail presently, I would not like that. I really like the feeling that there is something to give, and that righting moment increases with heel, and the sails are depowered as you heel. I like the feeling that if, God forbid, I get knocked down (as happened to me last year), I'll pop right back up. Although living on a heel in general sucks, these other things are very comforting in places like the North Sea, where if you're not willing to sail in a F8, you might have to wait weeks to go out.)

Having worked on a ship running from Bluff to Melbourne I am reluctant to go there in anything less than 40 000 tons. 8000 tons and 8000hp still had it's moments.

(But in more benign latitudes, and especially for something like a tradewinds circumnavigation, involving long ocean crossings, I think I would prefer a catamaran. Something large, maybe a Chris White Atlantic 57. Maybe with a somewhat smaller, shorter rig to add safety margin and reduce windage. For me, cats start to become really interesting when they are big enough to have quite narrow hulls like that, and to still have decent waterlines. The result of all this plus the lack of ballast means fantastically easily driven hulls, which will make for wonderful sailing as well as wonderful motoring.)

I agree that Chris Whites design's, though nice boats, were more towards the racing end of the spectrum, in power to weight ratio.
The gust that flipped Anna would probably not have flipped a Lagoon.

(For cruising the Med, I think I would also definitely prefer a cat. All the motoring you do there would be much more pleasant in a cat.[/QUOTE])

I cruise a small cat on the NZ coast. Which is noted for it's variable weather.
Been very happy with it's rough weather capability.
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Old 07-08-2016, 19:15   #277
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

277 posts later and have we reached a conclusion? I think there is a correlation of flipping/sinking due to the type of anchor deployed, and whether or not you carry guns on board.:facep alm:
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Old 07-08-2016, 19:17   #278
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Souther Wombat View Post
It's so hard to have a sensible discussion about multihulls which this thread shows too well. The tactic of resorting to Ad hominem attacks is the usual last resort when undefendable prejudices are challenged. It's just a debating tactic not part of any sensible discussion.

Stick to verifiable facts. There's a lot of opinions but facts speak for themselves. And the one thing that's quite clear is that there is very little experience with real offshore fully developed heavy weather at storm force. That's 50 knots and over gusting up to 40 % more. Look up your Beaufort chart for force 10 and tell me that's the conditions you found so serene.

I still see no one prepared to admit that current production models of cats have an abysmal survival rate if they are inverted in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services. That's a disturbing fact that people don't want to know, and that probably the same type of people (who are invariably very experienced cat skippers) end up dying more commonly that newcomers when it does go to custard.

The examples of modern cats inverting in heavy weather well away from rescue services all have a similar experience although comparitivly rare and I've never said otherwise than it's a low statistical likelihood. But as a risk assessment it makes the risk extreme.

Facts.
What's the survival rate of an inverted mono in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services?
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Old 07-08-2016, 20:33   #279
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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What's the survival rate of an inverted mono in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services?
No one knows because they are usually never found. Or we find an empty liferaft.
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Old 07-08-2016, 21:09   #280
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I wasnt talking about Toy boats,

I used to do that in my 14 foot Paper Tiger, I only took it out when the sun was shining and the wind was howling on the local lake here,,
Over powered with a 20 foot mainsail,
I needed two people for the counter balance, I only had me,
So the offside bow would dig in and pitch pole putting me 15 feet in the air,
At least twice a day, It was fun,
Stand on the hull with a rope, It stood it back up again and back on its keel,

I also had a two litre milk carton tied to the top of the mast to stop it sinking and inverting the boat completely,

Try that milk carton thing with any boat of a few tons, It just dont work,
Or trailer sailors,

Most on this thread are talking about ocean going vessels that cant be pulled out of the ocean and taken home after a days sailing,

They have 14 foot Cabots down the local lake here that cant be overturned, No matter what happens to them.
They take handicapped people out in them, They lower the handicapped people into them with a crane on the wharfe,
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Old 07-08-2016, 21:41   #281
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by CAELESTIS View Post
277 posts later and have we reached a conclusion? I think there is a correlation of flipping/sinking due to the type of anchor deployed, and whether or not you carry guns on board.:facep alm:
And, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that climate change deniers are almost certain to flip and sink no matter what sort of vessel they go to sea in.
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Old 07-08-2016, 22:00   #282
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
What's the survival rate of an inverted mono in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services?
During the same period of the losses of modern ISO compliant cats from inversion. There have not been any that I'm aware of. The whole design approval process is based on making sure they survive full inversion and come back up within a minimal time. They are also a platform you can stay on safely in heavy weather while waiting for rescue unlike the inverted cat. I'd challenge you to find anything similar to the cat losses from a modern ISO compliant offshore cruising ballasted monohull from being rolled offshore.
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Old 07-08-2016, 22:01   #283
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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What's the survival rate of an inverted mono in heavy weather away from reasonably prompt rescue services?
By catamaran standards, its pretty high. Here's a couple of success stories from when the solo rtw racers weren't requiring stability tests. It should be pointed out that these rescues were from the waters near Cape Horn, where few cats under 100 feet dare to go.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-le-cam-rescue

Tony Bullimore is rescued by the navy - Telegraph
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Old 07-08-2016, 23:24   #284
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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It should be pointed out that these rescues were from the waters near Cape Horn, where few cats under 100 feet dare to go.
Apart from, you know, everyone who wanted to circumnavigate and avoid the Gulf of Aden in the recent decade'ish .... crikey
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Old 08-08-2016, 00:12   #285
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Re: Catamarans in 50kt winds

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Apart from, you know, everyone who wanted to circumnavigate and avoid the Gulf of Aden in the recent decade'ish .... crikey
Even an armchair sailor should know the difference between the Cape of Good Hope and Cape Horn.
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