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Old 09-02-2008, 10:05   #61
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I'd just like to inject a note of caution here. In my day job I undertake periodic fire-fighting courses, part of which involves entering a smoke-filled mock-up of a commercial aircraft which has crashed and is in an unusual position on the ground, in order to retrieve casualties. The mental confusion is literally mind-blowing trying to relate what you are actually confronted with as opposed to what you know the interior of the aircraft looks like 'right way up'. All this talk of preparing a cat for an inversion is fine and dandy but I suspect that few people (and I include myself here) would be really capable of visualising what sort of state their boat would be in upside-down. It's good to have a plan, it's good to take whatever precautions you as an individual think necessary or wise BUT the reality should it ever happen is going to be a shock to most people.
There is a book by Gavin LeSuer, 'Multihull Seamanship' ISBN1 898660 31 X which discusses righting techniques. My impression having read it was that you would be lucky to succeed, but in extremis nothing to lose, right?
Like the forumite who has a Lavezzi 40 and seems a bit worried about it, I also am about to set off in a new -to -me -type of boat, but having read a few books about multihull sailing and talking to a couple of people who have circumnavigated in a cat, I feel more confident about it. At the risk of being shot down here, I rather suspect that a few people who have posted on this subject actually have 'walked the talk', done some long-distance sailing and know what they are talking about and others are armchair sailors indulging in 'what if' scenarios.
I will now don my tin hat and wait for incoming.
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Old 09-02-2008, 13:01   #62
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At the risk of being shot down here, I rather suspect that a few people who have posted on this subject actually have 'walked the talk', done some long-distance sailing and know what they are talking about and others are armchair sailors indulging in 'what if' scenarios. I will now don my tin hat and wait for incoming.
Hello Troutbridge,

Without bringing arms to bear...

I sat in the cockpit many times while underway asking myself, "what if" in regards to a lot of scenarios and kind of wished I would have done it while in the comfort of an armchair.

J
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Old 09-02-2008, 13:57   #63
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As the 'forumite' with the Lavezzi 40..On our one overnight passage we experienced winds up to 35 knots and had 2 reefs, and all went well (it was a little scary but with nothing to compare it to, and a full moon, ignorance was bliss)
We have a friend currently selling his Beneteau 47 after 4 yrs cruising (US to NZ via everywhere)..He, too, was relatively inexperienced (Lake Michigan only), but in his 4 yrs the worst conditions he ever came across were 35knots and less than 2 metre seas. So perhaps time and miles do not necessarily equip one with the broad range of experiences desired when in that one off Force 10 storm, in which case I guess we can but go with the wind and be equipped as best we can (read, talk, sail, pray?).
But, had I known then (when we bought the FP) what I know now (book smarts), the shopping list of requirements would have been different and we may well not be FP owners at all.
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Old 09-02-2008, 15:56   #64
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But, had I known then (when we bought the FP) what I know now (book smarts), the shopping list of requirements would have been different and we may well not be FP owners at all.
Ta
You have made a good choice of boat! The FP boats are strong, forgiving and underrigged! Compared to alot of the other boats around, they are not too heavy, bridgedeck clearance is OK.

I have had one for 8 years, have visited the factory a couple of years ago. They make a good safe product for the price. Sure you can find other boats out there, but most of them are more "niche" products, filling a smaller and more well defined market segment.
Don't let all the "experts" put you off, your boat will take you round the world safely.

If you read the manual, it will tell you what wind speeds to reef at, follow these guidelines to begin with, and as you gain experience, make up your own guidelines. Their figures tend to be very conservative.

You will find that a cat with mini keels, probably doesn't sail as high as a good mono, slacken off to around 40 to 45 degrees relative wind, the boom will need to be a bit (60-80 cm/2ft) off center, maybe more and she will go well. If you have a steering system without feedback, then watch the autopilot, to see if the sail trim is right. Fiddle around with it, and you will soon "find the groove".

You might want to consider a strong gennaker, if you don't have one already.


Have a safe journey

Regards

Alan
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Old 10-02-2008, 01:46   #65
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Hello Troutbridge,

Without bringing arms to bear...

I sat in the cockpit many times while underway asking myself, "what if" in regards to a lot of scenarios and kind of wished I would have done it while in the comfort of an armchair.

J
Me too! The point I was trying to make was that when pondering the 'ultimate disaster' it's all pretty much by guess and by God.
Leelee, I reckon your friends' experience is probably closer to the norm than many would think. There are no guarantees of course (which I'm sure you're more than aware) but provided you tilt the odds in your favour by cruising 'in the right place in the right season' you could well avoid any particularly unpleasant weather. I'm told by friends who are now in NZ (sailed a cat called Duende from the Channel Isles to NZ) that the two places where they experienced the worse weather was off the coast of Columbia and to/from NZ from Tonga and Fijii (sorry about that). Their boat (a Banshee) was designed more for coastal cruising than ocean crossings but they made it OK without too many frights. If you look around the Bay of Islands area I'm sure you'll see plenty of boats that are unlikely candidates for ocean crossings, but they all made it safely. All boats need 'tweaking' and once you've made the improvements to the boat that you think desirable I'm sure you'll have a great time. Personally, if I can complete my circumnavigation without experiencing winds more than 35/40kts and 3/4 metre seas I'll be delighted. I have, however, prepared the boat as best I can for worse. Having done that I now have more confidence in my choice of boat than just after I brought it and I'm sure you'll feel the same. In the 60s/70s multihulls had a bad reputation for seaworthiness but the designs since then have improved dramatically, particularly amongst mainstream cruising multihulls. Unfortunately the reputation lingers! This is a great site but I sometimes wonder how many posters have done more than just sit and theorise.
If any of us get caught in the 'one off' storm then we'll have to cope as best we can but the one thing you can be sure of is that familiarity with the boat will be a help, so sea miles are beneficial, even if most of them are in hopefully clement weather.
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Old 10-02-2008, 05:38   #66
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the one thing you can be sure of is that familiarity with the boat will be a help, so sea miles are beneficial, even if most of them are in hopefully clement weather.
The more you do, then the more easily you can tell when / if you should be "concerned" (scared? ).

I think one of the Sadomasochistic pleasures (that's a phrase for the Google ) of being a boat owner is imagining all the "What if" scenarios...........and then thinking through how the vessel / you would cope.

Of course if you truly thought they all would happen, yer would never leave the dock
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:37   #67
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Leelee I am not so sure that your FP Lavezzi is a bad choice at all. As has already been pointed out, they perform quite well, have decent bridgedeck clearance and are solidly constructed. They are also lighter than many cats with comparable accomodation, but this is largely due to the use of modern materials/construction techniques and finite element analysis during the design stage. And lighter displacement is a real bonus in terms of both performance and to some degree, load carrying capability.

You have European Union required safety exit hatches and, if I am not mistaken, a dedicated liferaft storage compartment. The profile of the coachouse is far more aerodynamic than many comparable boats and the FP systems are known to be efficient and reliable because of the huge number of boats they have designed and produced over the years. It is also a very attractive boat, at least to my eye.

If the standing rigging is a little light (as has been suggested) that could be remedied quite easily. On the other hand, there are modern cats that have been designed so that the rig will fail if the boat is carrying sufficient (read way too much) canvas to permit a wind-driven capsize. I suspect that the FP is one of these and I would contact them in that regard before making any changes. Lets face it, cats do not need to give any thought to a rig than can survive a knock-down, or capsize as they cannot right themselves. Further, the broader base provides much more strength than would similar rigging on a monohull.

While boards would no doubt provide improved performance, the keels on your boat are completely foam-filled and sacrificial in the case of a serious grounding. Further, they have been engineered to hold (and balance) the entire weight of your boat. (There is a photo one so situated in: Gregor Tarjan, Catamarans, The Complete Guide for Cruising Sailors, McGraw Hill, 2008 at p. 122).

And no, I haven't circumnavigated in an FP or anything else. Although I am now sailing a cat (and will be sailing her from Canada to South America next year), the only real offshore experience I have is from NYC to Bermuda in a monohull. Troutbridge will, therefore, summarily dismiss my opinion (as is his right). I have, however, read everything I can get my hands on and have attempted to balance that with my admittedly limited offshore (but otherwise extensive) sailing experience. Insight can come even out of the mouths of babes and I, for one, consider all sources/comments even if only to test my own assumptions.

My current cat is hardly my (nor I suspect anyone else's) paradigm for a circumnavigator. My choice was restricted by both budget and the eventual need to use her for day charters for relatively large numbers of people. Nevertheless, the compromises are ones that I believe I can 'live' with, and where possible, I am in the process of making various modifications to improve her suitability for offshore use.

My point is that there is little use in your considering the opinions of anyone concerning the ultimate cat for a circumnavigation. Firstly, I suspect without knowing that there were budgetary considerations that may have ruled out some of the Gunboats, Atlantics, Fastcats, Outremers and even Catanas that are favoured by so many. Secondly, you already have your boat and from what I have read, she seems to be quite capable of meeting your needs if properly equipped. Make no mistake, all boats are compromises and I suspect that yours may well be ideal (or at least close to ideal) for you situation, intended use and budget.

If, on the other hand, money is truly no object - well then, you can afford to take a loss on her (likely not too bad as FP's have a reputation for excellent resale value) and after some research, buy your paradigm for the offshore cruising cat.

Brad

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Old 11-02-2008, 12:47   #68
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Thanks Brad, for your (positive) thoughts. We figure we willl go ahead as planned, to Toga, Fiji and then probably sell in Australia; either as 'the end' or, if we loved the experience, to purchase another catamaran . Alternatively we would ship the FP (if we loved it) to Canada and use for the pleasure sailing there; San Juans, Charlottes, Alaska etc,as we definitely prefer a cat to the monohull we have had there for many yrs.I, too, read everything, and am not looking for recommendations for a very good, but simplistic weather book. We have several but none has actual photos of the diff cloud typse nor are reader friendly enough for the totally green. Any suggestions?Thanks to everyone on the forum; Just voicing concerns and hearing other opinions has soothed me somewhat and made me less anxious. let the adventure begin!
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Old 11-02-2008, 23:30   #69
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Leelee, sounds like you are in NZ. Well you should be pleased to know that 1st "FP Lavezzi " for NZ was sailed here from AUS. I have seen the Seawind 1160 and many other cats come and go here. Seen a few FP Venezias and Belize. Kiwi sailors often cross to AUS and Fiji. Sure it can be one of the most challenging passages, I remember a Prout 33 kept turning back and made it to Fiji in 3rd attempt. You might want to speak to some experienced local sailors, I think idea would be to head as far North as you can 1st and then towards AUS.
A prout 34 owner who migrated here from UK made regular crossings between NZ, AUS and Fiji. I know Prouts are very capable boats but the FPs are made well too and have good track record.
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Old 13-02-2008, 13:05   #70
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Vacation standard cat features versus voyaging optimum

I'm back, and thanks to my well-wishers. We are experiencing a lot of thread drift, so I'll see if I can't inspire some interest in the issues that I was addressing in starting this thread-basically, I suggested that vacation boat design features did not make for an optimum voyaging design. IMHO, discussing which cookie-cutter charter/vacation boat is best to voyage in is off topic on this thread, because the answer is none. They are pretty indistinguishable compared to a catamaran with ideal characteristices.********************************* ********************* 1) Standard design feature--1 big compartment with a few small watertight chambers. Preferred for Offshore-many moderate size watertight compartments. 2) Standard design feature-- No floatation-- Preferred for Offshore--Lots of floatation, centered vertically 3) Standard design feature-maximum possible accommodation for size--Preferred for Offshore-modest accommodations for size 4) Standard Design Feature--Standard rig with devices bolted to the boat to reduce rig's user-hostile features-- Preferred for Offshore--User friendly rig easy to reef and furl in all conditions, also with rig redundancy, reliability, and economy 5) Standard feature-Not fire resistant--Offshore optimum-fire resistant. 6) Standard design feature--Short waterline, big hull beam, berth shelves, high displacement--Preferred for offshore-narrow, long hulls, no berth shelves, low displacement for length.
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Old 19-02-2008, 07:53   #71
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looking for recommendations for a very good, but simplistic weather book. We have several but none has actual photos of the diff cloud typse nor are reader friendly enough for the totally green. Any suggestions?
Not exactly aimed at mariners, but the pilot training manual "From the Ground Up" has an excellent section on met, that is very readable (iirc) http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1560...62#reader-link

Also the West Coast Marine Weather Hazards Manual is superb, especially for the BC coastal conditions. You can get an illustrated cloud chart at the same supplier: Pacific & Yukon Region


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