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Old 17-09-2010, 16:39   #61
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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Which ones? I know of no multihull builder that is closing down.
Who said they were multihull builders?
The point is shipwrights have been at a premium for awhile now, but with some of the yards closing the cost of their services may come down allowing the local yards to continue competing with the cheaper imports by reducing their prices.
I know local boats were riding high on a very good marketing campaign backed up by the stimulus package, but where are they now?
To quote them "the charter company fleets are nearly full in all the good locations so be quick to get in".
Do you have many boats being bought by OS clients with the current exchange rate?
A friend of mine had 18 months worth of orders for his luxury monos and a whole lot of other stuff.
Due to no fault of his product he closed his yards this year.
Another friend has a very nice set of plans for two sized cats designed by a well known and respected cat designer.
He has very sensibly (in my opinion) shelved those ideas for the time being which is good news for his opposition for the time being.
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Old 17-09-2010, 16:43   #62
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The other thing that affects these sort of process is currency movements, at the moment its good for using $A overseas, if you are doing a long deal its worth considering hedging against the currency movement just in case the arse drops out of the dollar.
Hedging is good but can be costly as you have to cover interest rates in the process, I was quoted on US hedging which took two cents off the exchange rate.

OK if the rate drops more than that but like fixed price mortgages are the best rate.

Of course if the dollar goes up well, you know.
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Old 17-09-2010, 16:50   #63
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ISO of my new "Girlfriend" I more and more am drifting towards a Cat.
Hence this topic is of great interest to me especially since I have to realize two factors:
(a) My current budget (and the one I know I will come by in the near future) are as prohibitive for vessels (Catamarans) of 50' + and
(b) With a cat there is so much more room on board, that a 40-45' will probably give me more living space than my last 60' monohull.

Speaking of brokers:
I find it rather strange that most of those I have contacted either don't bother to respond at all or flatly state that the will not forward my offer to the seller! If I was a seller I would not want a broker to decide over what I get to see and what not.... or? do you guys feel differently?

Basically I don't think my offer is too bad, since I am prepared to accept asking prices up to 200K $ without negotiating but in return am asking for the seller to:
* Accept a roughly $ 50 K downpayment
* Accept a wonderfull (US-taged) car that has been restored to the tune of $ 80K for "trade in" - but only for another $ 50K (so, less than full value) and
* Extend some owner financing for the remainder to be paid within a reasonable timeframe.

Since I have been doing charters for the major part of my life, I have a huge clientele that really is only waiting for me to call them and say: "Hey I got a great boat again, lets go sailing!" and in addition there is a deal pending with a major TV station to actually produce a show with the boat playing a central role. The only "but" is, that there is no deal unless I have a boat, so I have to go for the above mentioned "creative financing" to make this happen.

Anyway: If any of you have a decent sized Cat for sale and are interested in working out some deal with me, - I'd be happy to be hearing from you!
Alby Mangles is trying to make a come back, I'm sure he could give you a few tips
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Old 17-09-2010, 20:04   #64
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Wow, someone has just listed a 2004 Lagoon 38 for $290K AUD pity I'm after a FP looks nice if the pics are recent. Welcome to yachtdomain.com - International Yacht Sales
There must be a catch but hay who knows nice cat for someone.
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Old 17-09-2010, 20:41   #65
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Wow, someone has just listed a 2004 Lagoon 38 for $290K AUD pity I'm after a FP looks nice if the pics are recent. Welcome to yachtdomain.com - International Yacht Sales
There must be a catch but hay who knows nice cat for someone.
Things must be different down there - that is a high price for that boat in the US ($290k AUD = $272k USD).

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Old 17-09-2010, 20:48   #66
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Ozzie prices seem very high to me as well-- even after allowing for the exchange rate. However, their housing bubble and economy have yet to pop. I love a lot of the cats down there but their prices don't work out very well.
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Old 17-09-2010, 21:26   #67
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It has to also be largely a supply and demand issue. Not a ton of cats for sale.

Several threads running regarding Aussies buying boats overseas and sailing them back.

Local Singapore anecdotes also talk about Aussies buying a lot of boats from Singapore after the Asian currency meltdown years ago.

Not that Australia wasn't also affected but there were a lot of folks in this tiny market trying to get out of their boats. The supply market, in my non-expert opinion, has not recovered here as there has been no real "surge" of wealth required to entice people to bring boats in.
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Old 18-09-2010, 01:27   #68
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Things must be different down there - that is a high price for that boat in the US ($290k AUD = $272k USD).
Things sure are different! I agree: a similiar 5 year old, ex-charter, basic fitout Lagoon 380 selling by Sunsail in the Caribbean would have an asking price of around US$200-220K.
Until recently, this type of boat (Lagoon 380, FP Lavezzi, Leopard 40) of this age and useage would have been priced at over US$400K on the Australian market. And many still are! They're DREAMING or fishing for fools!
If people are actually paying this type of money for 5 year old, ex-charter, charter layout Seawind 1160s, as Factor asserts, (and Fusion 40s, Perry 40s, and all the other locally built charter boats ) then it says a lot about how well they are regarded by local buyers. Twice as good as the French and SA boats? Perhaps not.
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Old 18-09-2010, 02:16   #69
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Which ones? I know of no multihull builder that is closing down.
Perhaps you should get around the industry a bit more.
Try this one:www.pacificmultihulls.com.
And let's not forget Tasman yachts, (remember the Tasman 35?), Perry Catamarans and a number of yards that weren't just cat builders, such as Lloyd's at Bulimba. These are just the local close downs.
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Old 18-09-2010, 03:15   #70
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.....to tell a client he had to take a .......
Would you be kind enough to show me where in my posting I wrote anything about the owner/seller "having to do..." (anything)?

All I stipulated was, that only the owner should have the right to accept or decline an offer.
But maybe yachtbrokers operate ethnically a notch below real estate brokers who by law are obligated to submit ANY(!) offer to the seller?
(The law saying nothing about a broker not having the right to accompany an offer they consider ridiculous with comments they feel to be appropriate, but still: It's up to the owner and the owner only to decide!)

This said, I just want to ad, that when there is money in abundance it's easy to be arrogant - in times of economical hardship (and who would doubt that we still are in the middle of a severe recession?) the name of the game is "creativity".
....but of course, people who generally lack the ability to look beyond the rim tend to hate those who can.

Nobody would claim that Henry Ford was an idiot, right?, and it was him who once said:
"You can always say "no" AFTER you heard a proposal, but never, ever say "no" BEFORE you did."
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Old 18-09-2010, 05:34   #71
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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
If people are actually paying this type of money for 5 year old, ex-charter, charter layout Seawind 1160s, as Factor asserts, (and Fusion 40s, Perry 40s, and all the other locally built charter boats ) then it says a lot about how well they are regarded by local buyers. Twice as good as the French and SA boats? Perhaps not.
Dont think I said that, what I said was good boats are bringing good money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
Perhaps you should get around the industry a bit more.
Try this one:www.pacificmultihulls.com.
And let's not forget Tasman yachts, (remember the Tasman 35?), Perry Catamarans and a number of yards that weren't just cat builders, such as Lloyd's at Bulimba. These are just the local close downs.
I am well aware of all of them. Dragon Lady said builders are closing down. TASMAN Perry and PAc Multihulls closed down quite a while back. Perhaps you should get round the industry a bit, no one who knows the industry would suggest that TASMAN was a victim of any thing in any way shape or form. And I dont really think that Pacmultis qualify as a builder, I think barely one yacht was ever produced.

As for the non cat builders - you are right I dont follow that part of the industry.
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Old 18-09-2010, 08:13   #72
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Cant understand why a broker wouldnt want to tell a client he had to take a car he may not want and hand the boat over on a time payment plan.
I'd fire a broker who witheld an offer.

It's solely the owners decision to evaluate an offer. And you can't evaluate an offer which you haven't seen.
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Old 18-09-2010, 15:03   #73
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I think the issue is, as resilient as the cat market is it is not immune to the outside forces effecting all markets world wide.
The the latest tourism figures for Australia are out and they are not good news for the local charter industry.
This will probably mean more owners having difficulty paying for their boats in charter.
Will some decide to sell out?
Probably, but who knows.
My opinion and that's all it is. Is that the market is still softening but the brokers are working hard to convince us otherwise.
And they have to, it's their job to keep the market moving, if they don't they will be out of a job.
There are still people paying top dollar for a boat they really want and good luck to them good used boats aren't that easy to find.
It's all the overpriced rubbish that is the real issue.
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Old 18-09-2010, 19:36   #74
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I'm a new member ( ex charter skipper/owner 15 years in Tortola BVI's ) (see profile)

.... DragonLady , I'm in a similar situation as you, & have been reading all your comments .... IMO best bargains are now in Med. area & should get lower especially with winter looming .
Watch how many owners get into financial probs & grab a quick cash sale 30-40 % less than their 'already reduced' asking prices.
Also after Hurricanes in Caribbean have ravaged 1000's of boats ......afterwards damaged yachts are just abandoned & owners are still in shock . cash is king. . Often the Salvage' crews with barge & crane & tug boat etc want 10% of estimated value of boat to get it hauled out to closest drydock.....Sometimes the cruising people just can't raise this quickly.......& just fly home....etc.
I had 15 years chartering in BVI's, USVI's & st.Martin islands.....& often bought damaged boats at 10%of previous values.....My son & other times my brother visited & we all worked on the boats for 6 -12 months & sold at lots higher prices. 200 plus yachts in the 'Pond' in St.Martin ..went aground all damaged to some extent

.Also Culebra island near Peurto Rico(famous hurricane hole ) ...had about a 500 yachts inside (yes!! 500) 200washed ashore with broken masts /hulls etc...I could go ...on & on ......

Trouble was the damn Charter companies were last to arrive & staff would just anchor upwind of the main 'mob'....with light ground tackle & go back to charter base & get another yacht. When 200kph winds came ..these boats would drag down & foul up anchors of yachts downwind ....then more gusts would have them all banging hulls & smashing masts....Some of us nearly cried to witness this....but such is life.....
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Old 19-09-2010, 08:40   #75
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.... & should get lower especially with winter looming .....
Or so one would think!
Problem is, that at least I did not yet find any decent source for boats offered by owners directly. It's worse than with RE!!
It's not only that I don't like brokers because I really don't see the service they could possibly render which would have any value anywhere close to the commission they are charging (same with RE! Get yourself a decent title insurance/closing attorney and them adds I can place myself!)

But I also need to "feel" the current owner as first and most important indication as to the value of the boat!! If you know what you are talking about it takes some 10-15 minutes talking to an owner and you'll have a fairly good idea what to expect from the boat he is selling! I'd prefer hald an hour with the current owner over a nice cup of coffee or a beer to any surveyor!
All a broker cares about is to sell the boat and pocket the commission.
Next (victim!) please.........

Call me silly, but I am talking with boats ..and they are talking to me. All a broker could do in such a situation is: Disturb!
(Yet alone stories I have read here where a broker would stop a potential buyer from lifting the floorboards! Only conclusion: Run!)

While cruising I have met sooooo many boat owners who did have the money to buy (what some broker sold to them)but eventually found that they got themselves into something way over their head. They still love the idea of traveling under sail, and there where the one or other who would have been happy to let the boat go to someone who'd be able to handle it in exchange for just being welcome at any time to trott along for a ride......... (Where are these owners now that I need them?! :-))

Bottom line is, that some people just feel more comfortable staying ashore and watching the boats from the drivers seat of their Rolls Royce (which is what I have to offer as a partial trade in) while some people couldn't care less about all the comforts land might be able to offer.

But, in order to find each other, get a feeling for each other and find a road to make each part really happy - you need to talk to the owners directly and definitely NOT to any broker!
..so, if you have any good idea where to find "Boats for sale by owner" - let me know! :-)
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