Catamarans - Current Market Situation

[gspeak]

Yeah, I also was wondering how they continue to pass survey until I enquired with Maritime Safety Queensland about changing my registration to Leisure as I didn't really want the expense of having annual surveys done to keep it in 1F rego. Was told that annual surveys are not required for Queensland 1F.

They have to be surveyed on the initial registration but that's it.

They may come & visit for an occasional pre-arranged audit to see that it continues to comply. But that's it.

1F seems to be a "special" classification to encourage charter boats.

Consequently mine has just been renewed in 1F at a total cost of $368.

I'm happy.

Dave

Originally Posted by dirkdig

Totally agree, i had tried to buy 2 ex charter cats and made serious offers on them before getting our cat.
I could not understand how this boat was passing survey??

All 5 yo plus boats need things done and replaced.
The boat i saw was through a broker and ready to go out on charter too when i inspected it, so it was presented as good as possible.

Plenty of great ex charter boats around, better to use than have them sit there going all unlubricated.

Love the 380 great cat

[dirkdig]

Great deal for 1F i would keep that going.
In Vic its a full on annual inspection and its just too hard to get them in survey in the first place.
To register my 440 it costs $70 a year, which is cheap compared to Qld.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

....Not sure if this was mentioned already or not but interesting to see some cats are selling 15 years later for 75-80% of new. Yet a bunch of gemini 105s. Have dropped to 40% of new. These being model year 2000+

I'm not certain that Gemini catamarans can be fairly compared to French or South African built boats. They were designed and built as boats for folks to Island hop and have fun with, not to circumnavigate. (Hat tip to Mr. B for sailing his boat to Australia). They are priced accordingly.

Originally Posted by Mr B

But there are 1200 Gemini's floating around. And the economy in the USA isnt the greatest at the moment....

Yes, there are a lot of them out there but I wonder if Performance Cruising's latest corporate moves are at least partly responsible for this. The company decided to discontinue manufacturing and contracted out to Hunter Marine to build their boats, a company currently operating under bankruptcy protection. Also, it appears The Catamaran Company now has exclusive sales rights?? I know this has confused a lot of folks. Does anyone know how successful they are in marketing the Hunter built boats under this arrangement?

Frankly, when I look at Caribbean ex-charter boats saturating the American market, and see how well they are selling, my guess would be that Gemini's market has to be impacted.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

To register my 440 it costs $70 a year, which is cheap compared to Qld.

Don't remind me. My rego includes a "recreational Facility Fee" or some equally stupid item. That fee, the nice young man from MSQ explained to me was for all the boat ramps I use.

I tried to explain that I am a bit big for boat ramps, but he didn't seem to grasp my point.

There are so many things wrong with MSQ that even thinking about it makes me depressed.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

To register my 440 it costs $70 a year, which is cheap compared to Qld.

Groan...a b----y lot cheaper than NSW as well...

[beau]

Our boat was custom built. How do you establish title.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by beau

Our boat was custom built. How do you establish title.

We believe it's done in NSW by a 'boat code agent', liscensed as such by NSW Maritime...or NSW Roads and Maritime Services, as they are now known.

The odds are, however, that Qld will be different, given the incredible confusion that passes for marine regulations in Australia.

Roll on AMSA, although dealing with them is often less-than-comforting...or clear...and whether the various State agencies will ever give up their fiefdoms is another BIG question. At one stage we were advised that AMSA registration (required for Australian flag vessels travelling overseas of course) was all that was needed domestically; that was very appealing news given AMSA's one-off registration fee. Several friendly chats with NSW Maritime Officers (oops...Roads & Maritime Services) on the water, however, persuaded us that the path of least resistance was to also register at the State level...and then support the fiefdom with their annual fees.

[Factor]

Vessel registration is constitutionally a State matter so having Federal Rego alone would require the state to statutorily cede the power and that ain't gunna happen, at least not in my lifetime.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Factor

Vessel registration is constitutionally a State matter so having Federal Rego alone would require the state to statutorily cede the power and that ain't gunna happen, at least not in my lifetime.

Hi Andrew!

We're inclined to agree with your "not in my lifetime" conclusion, but for political, rather than any constitutional limitation(s).

In fact, it seems to us that the Australian Constitution seems well suited to a Federal maritime system. Cf. Section 98...

"The power of the [Commonwealth] Parliament to make laws with respect to trade and commerce extends to navigation and shipping...."

There are also the specific powers given to the Commonwealth in Section 51 regarding "fisheries" and "lighthouses, lightships, beacons and buoys".

Furthermore, the States are broadly limited with regard to revenue raising activities; that too seems to suggest we ought to be paying our vessel registration fees to AMSA, rather than the respective State fiefdoms.

Politically though, and especially under our current rudder-less --Pardon the double entendre! -- 'hung' Parliament, the States actually being compelled to walk away from their maritime revenue (and employment!) machines seems very unlikely. Just look at how many times the AMSA implementation has been 'revised'!

The Australian maritime regulation system is embarrassing. Sure, there are plenty of other sloppy and inefficient (or crooked!) maritime systems around the world, but we should be aspiring toward the best, notably the UK and USA models. We really need to pick up our act in this area.

Sorry about the thread drift here, but needed to 'vent' a bit...

...and now back to the current market situation...

[ausaviator]

As I understand it, Commercial Rego in Victoria is useless for a private operator.

Let's say you opeate a Seawind 1000 are registered under 2X survey to operate with 6 pax in Port Phillip Bay.

Then you decide you then want to spend a weekend at Refuge Cove or a couple of weeks travelling to Tasmania. To achieve this, you must write to Marine Safety Victoria and have your boat essentially removed from survey for that 2 week period.

Crazy stuff!

Likening that to owning an aircraft that is used for charter. Whenever you wanted to fly it privately yourself to a private destination, you'd have to call CASA / FAA in advance and tell them you were going to make the trip!

[gspeak]

To add to this craziness ....

I was told by MSQ that I don't have to worry about 1F rego if I wanted to use the boat as recreational at any time. Keep it in 1F & use it as I want. Just don't use it to make money otherwise I would have to apply for full commercial.

So I can make money by chartering it ... but not if I take photos from the boat & sell them.

Go figure!

Originally Posted by ausaviator

As I understand it, Commercial Rego in Victoria is useless for a private operator.

Let's say you opeate a Seawind 1000 are registered under 2X survey to operate with 6 pax in Port Phillip Bay.

Then you decide you then want to spend a weekend at Refuge Cove or a couple of weeks travelling to Tasmania. To achieve this, you must write to Marine Safety Victoria and have your boat essentially removed from survey for that 2 week period.

Crazy stuff!

Likening that to owning an aircraft that is used for charter. Whenever you wanted to fly it privately yourself to a private destination, you'd have to call CASA / FAA in advance and tell them you were going to make the trip!

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by gspeak

Keep it in 1F & use it as I want. Just don't use it to make money otherwise I would have to apply for full commercial.

So I can make money by chartering it ... but not if I take photos from the boat & sell them.

Go figure!

Under the USL code, a Class 1F vessel is for "hire and drive", as in bare boat charter, restricted to certain areas in Queensland. So, whilst your vessel remains in survey you could put it back into the fleet at Hamilton Island for a tour of duty. You could not do skippered charters however, as you'd require a higher classification ie 1E, 1D, etc. You would also need a commercial licence such as Coxwain or Master Class 4.
Under the USL code there "should" be regular surveys, on an annual basis.

However in the real world, especially Queensland, don't assume that a secondhand vessel for sale will be in good condition just because it is "in survey".

Enjoy that recreation on your L380, the biggest 38 foot cat around.

[gspeak]

Tuskie,
Thanks for that. I do understand most of the conditions of 1F rego. What's interesting is that under USL is that the vessel may be used for recreational as long as the log book is filled. While operating as recreational it is not bound by the commercial rule.

Its interesting tho that the various fleets at Hamilton offer skippered charters. I think even using 1F boats. I know one Master Class skipper who does regular skippered charters down there and who wanted to use our boat for a charter.

Dave

Originally Posted by tuskie

Under the USL code, a Class 1F vessel is for "hire and drive", as in bare boat charter, restricted to certain areas in Queensland. So, whilst your vessel remains in survey you could put it back into the fleet at Hamilton Island for a tour of duty. You could not do skippered charters however, as you'd require a higher classification ie 1E, 1D, etc. You would also need a commercial licence such as Coxwain or Master Class 4.
Under the USL code there "should" be regular surveys, on an annual basis.

However in the real world, especially Queensland, don't assume that a secondhand vessel for sale will be in good condition just because it is "in survey".

Enjoy that recreation on your L380, the biggest 38 foot cat around.

[dirkdig]

In Victoria if you have your boat in 1d or 1E survet you will need to be qualified as a master 5 to use it yourself ??
Other wise remove it from survey then a 2 hour course boat lic will do to use it yourself?
Great system.
Not as if there are 1000,s of boats in survey in Vic either.

[tuskie]

No Dirkdig, you don't require a commercial licence to use a surveyed vessel for private, non-commercial use. AFAIK, in all Australian states, anyone with a suitable recreational licence may operate surveyed trading or fishing vessels for recreational trips.
There are many provisos. For example, if any of your "guests" admits to paying "fuel money" or your fishing mates decide to sell their catch then you are in trouble. The vessel log has to reflect a non- commercial trip and your tax return can't reflect 100% commercial use as far as deductions of expenses.
I don't wish to appear patronising, but offer advise regarding making money out of a boating hobby or any other hobby that I know of. Don't.
Chances are that you won't make money, and most likely, the fun will disappear.
Our love of boating is too precious to lose.