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Old 07-09-2010, 17:25   #31
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I think the ex charter boats are doing the most damage to resale values, they are so cheap that even the non chartered private boats are coming down too.
That said I'm more in the market for a charter style boat under $200K USD so maybe that market is different but I would think the mid to top end would be hurting more than the bargain basement.
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Old 07-09-2010, 23:09   #32
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Nice people don't like to bargain.

I love Therapy's line.

Dont' worry about offending the seller. You aren't out to marry him/her. You are out to buy their boat.

My dad was offered an airplane from the widow of a friend. My Dad already had 3 airplanes (long story). He tried to help her sell it. He didn't want it. She came back with a lower price. He didn't want it. She was at wits end to sell the thing.

He reminded her what it was worth in a good market, explained he didn't want the plane and that he didn't want to rip her off. Fully informed she sold it to him for 1/2 market price. He sold it to me for the same and I flew it for 4 years. I subsequently sold it for near double what I paid.

No body got ripped off. Everyone got what they wanted, including my buyer and I got to fly basically for free.

Offer what you personally are willing to pay. The seller can always say no.

And if he does say no remind him/her that if he changes his mind you are ready.

BTW - Is it unethical for the buyer to entertain 2, 3 or more buyers shopping his price until the purchase agreement is signed? Of course not. The seller has the right and should get the highest price the market will bear. However, once pen hits paper both parties should now act exclusively.
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:44   #33
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I am getting incidental evidence that the low to mid market of catamarans is a little better then we previously thought....

Unrelated to the above, I had my first interaction with a broker today. Holy slimy salesman batman! I told the sellers broker that I was in the early stages of buying (read if I can get a screaming deal I will pull the trigger, but also not to expect too much from me at this point) and he hem and hawed for a bit, told me a previous sea trial went horribly, but it was ready to sail right now and said just 5% below list price would take it away today... ok buddy. As soon as I get my pre-approval letter we will talk again in the 20-30% off list price range...

Which brings me to my next question; does the seller broker HAVE to present all offers that are submitted to the owner?

Brian
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Old 08-09-2010, 03:12   #34
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Which brings me to my next question; does the seller broker HAVE to present all offers that are submitted to the owner?
Why wouldn't a broker advise the Owner of an offer? Sure, the broker gets a percentage of the sale but a deal struck today is money in the bank. So, what possible incentive would a broker have to withhold offers?

I'm sure he'll tell you if he doesn't think an offer will fly. But hey, I've had offers accepted after real estate agents have shook their heads & frowned....
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Old 08-09-2010, 03:39   #35
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I am getting incidental evidence that the low to mid market of catamarans is a little better then we previously thought....
How so? Here in Florida prices seem to be falling on everything.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:30   #36
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Market

From first hand knowledge, two lagoon 380 sold last week. Survey done the same day.

Did they come cheap no, did they come cheaper than in 2004-2006 you bet.

Where the buyer lining the dock no. So what you have is the cream rise, we can buy the best, read brand new for the price of an ex-charter a few year back when the market was crazy with multiple offer.

So good well maintain boat will always sell at a fair price, the rest stay at the dock and wait for the acceptance of a lowball offer for the moment. Until time turn and everybody wake up that the world hasn't stop and if he does, we will jump on your boat and leave earlier.
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Old 08-09-2010, 15:52   #37
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Speaking of brokers, if you're in the Baltimore/Annapolis area and you're looking for a cat you can't go wrong with Tommy Smith at Sailaway Catamarans. When we met Tommy we let it be known that we were two years out from buying. What we wanted to do in the meantime was see as many boats as possible in order to narrow down the list when it came time to buy. The first boat he showed us was in December. It was on the hard, of course, and covered in snow and ice. It was in the 30's but he took his time with us, answered every question and never once did we feel rushed. After we got off that boat, a Lagoon 380, he walked us though the yard looking at other boats even though they weren't for sale. He just wanted us to get a feel for the boats. We had never been on a cat up to this point. Since we had never been on a cat, Tommy told us when the weather breaks in the spring he would invite us out to go sailing. And by gosh, that's just what he did. First boat was a Jaguar 36 he took us on. The last boat we sailed on with him was a FP Salina 48. I can't tell you how much we have learned by all this. Tommy has turned us into educated buyers! I'm not affiliated with Sailaway Catamarans in any way, I just wanted to let others know that there are brokers out there who do care, and Tommy Smith is a great example!
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Old 08-09-2010, 16:18   #38
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How so? Here in Florida prices seem to be falling on everything.
one of the cats i was interested in in texas, went into contract this week, a few others I have had eyes on have sold in the last month. now indigo moon, which admittitly was not a target to me (too nice), sold relateively quickly.

My market is also pretty small. I am trying to buy on the west coast to avoid the stress and hassle of getting a cat from the east coast to here, which would add even more complexity on top of a first time boat buyer.

As others have already siad, I am thinking that GOOD entry level cats are not hurting as much as ex charters, older cats (pre 2000ish), or high end cats($500+).

Brian
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Old 08-09-2010, 20:55   #39
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As others have already siad, I am thinking that GOOD entry level cats are not hurting as much as ex charters, older cats (pre 2000ish), or high end cats($500+).

Brian
A lot of money flowed from real estate into yachts via equity releases - the chances of that dynamic recovering are zero.

So time is on your side. It costs money to keep a boat, and no doubt increasing numbers of sellers will be looking with a worried eye at the mounting running costs needed to wait for the 'perfect price'.

On purchasing our last boat (during a severe recession) we found the previous listings in the nav station after we completed the sale: $575K, $425K, $375K .... we bought her for $340K. The owner just walked - he didn't even bother to remove his personal effects. Eight years later we resold her for $315K.

You're in the position of being a purchaser with the luxury of no time pressure and the ability to negotiate a good price. You're in a very strong position and it'll only get stronger. Enjoy that luck and make the most of it!
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:06   #40
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Originally Posted by mtnsapo View Post
one of the cats i was interested in in texas, went into contract this week, a few others I have had eyes on have sold in the last month. now indigo moon, which admittitly was not a target to me (too nice), sold relateively quickly.

My market is also pretty small. I am trying to buy on the west coast to avoid the stress and hassle of getting a cat from the east coast to here, which would add even more complexity on top of a first time boat buyer.

As others have already siad, I am thinking that GOOD entry level cats are not hurting as much as ex charters, older cats (pre 2000ish), or high end cats($500+).

Brian
There are way fewer cats on the west coast so in fact you may pay a premium. Why not look at a caribbean cat and possibly have the crew/owner deliver to you. I know of a charter cat that just sold in the BVI and the crew will now deliver it to Australia.
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Old 09-09-2010, 13:20   #41
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I am entertaining the idea of bringing a cat over from the East but I am uncertain as to what the cost would be for a captain and a panama canal crossing. I would welcome the opprontunity to flight out and help crew as I am new to sailing and I think I would learn a lot on the pasage. But the cost fuzziness and higher risk may make any savings on the boat purchase not worth it or even more expensive than buying on the west coast...

I should have a preapproval letter from BoatUS tomorrow, what is interesting is that they will NOT write a loan on any boat coming out of a charter company. That changes things a bit....

Brian
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Old 09-09-2010, 14:04   #42
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Hi, Brian --

It's not getting the boat to Panama that's the problem, at least if you pick your weather window well and the time of the year. (March/April/May is best for the run from FL/Bahamas to Panama) It is getting it through the Canal and then back up the West Coast, presumably to San Francisco, given your location.

That is a very long trip (4100+nm, Canal to SF) trip, ALL uphill! You're fighting both currents and winds the whole way and there's some very tricky spots around the capes. Not that it can't be done (people can and do), but prepare for it to take a long time, since weather selection is paramount and you may sitting in port for a week or two waiting for the next window, and be motoring for much, if not most, of the way. Plus, don't be surprised when the weaker links on the boat, whatever they may be, break in the process. Really, the better route is to Hawaii and then SF, even though it adds thousands of miles. Even that is nothing to minimize, especially on a boat unknown to you, and would be a trip measured in months, not weeks.

Not that long ago (late '09/early '10), I was looking at the same trip for bringing our boat to the PacNW. I thought I would sail to Panama and through the Canal and then up to Golfito, where I would meet a YachtPath ship for the trip up the coast. Nice ride to Panama, Golfito is close to the Canal, etc. But, the problem came with assuredly getting the boat through the Canal to be sure of meeting the ship. I talked to two Canal agents and both of them said that March/April/May is the worst time to try and get a yacht through and they could not guarantee a transit in time. Last year, yachts were stacked up and some of them waited 6 weeks to get through. (Yachts are the lowest priority; they make lots more money on ships.)

Given all that, we ended up biting the budgetary bullet and putting her on a ship in Ft. Lauderdale. Turns out there was a last minute opening and we got a substantial discount, but for a 44' cat, it was still a lot of money! (Initial quote from Ft. Lauderdale to Victoria was $36K+, last year. Dockwise was $55K. Yacht Path discounted 25% for the last-minute departure, but have to be ready to take it, which means having your boat ready to load with 7 days notice, and not have it be a big problem if it doesn't happen.)

Plus, your transport costs are not the only ones. You must have insurance -- they won't take you without it. Your boat must be ready and ship-shape and that usually means some money. Either you have to be responsible for getting her to the ship or pay someone to do it. Etc., etc., Ka-ching, ka-ching.

But, even if you take that on, your problems still aren't over! There's this thing called the Jones Act and it prevents foreign flagged ships from making transits from one US port to another. That means that they can't drop off your boat in San Francisco! For YachtPath, it would be either Ensenada or Victoria, BC. Dockwise (more expensive) goes to either La Paz or Vancouver, BC. (Personally, if you want the boat in SF, have it sent to Victoria in the Spring, cruise the NW in the summer, then go down the coast, a much more pleasant trip, in September.)

Getting a better idea now why (1) there aren't as many cats on the West Coast, and (2) why the ones that are here, cost more?

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Old 09-09-2010, 16:23   #43
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I think the ex charter boats are doing the most damage to resale values, they are so cheap that even the non chartered private boats are coming down too.
That said I'm more in the market for a charter style boat under $200K USD so maybe that market is different but I would think the mid to top end would be hurting more than the bargain basement.
Dragon lady - just remember to add the import costs if you buy overseas.

eg you buy a xyz cat in the bahamas, and pay 150K australian - same boat here is say 250K. Looks like a bargain. But you have to spend a few bucks getting it here, say you sail, you have to add the costs of a canal transit, and the costs of getting from there to here. Or say you put it on a dockwise ship or similar, might cost 50K?

When you arrive in Australia you will pay 10% GST on the cost of the boat INCLUDING the costs of getting it here, then 5% duty on top of that. So the 150K boat becomes a 230K boat in a hurry, and that hasnt included the costs of air travel etc to look at it.

Having said that, if you do it carefully you can come out ahead and have the experience of a pacific crossing etc so it still may be worthwhile, just make sure you do the sums and get a feel for what its going to cost landed.

A guy on know did a fairly good deal on bringing a Corasir 36 tri into Australia recently. Got a good boat at a good price landed. But not a bargain.
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Old 10-09-2010, 02:34   #44
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Thanks Factor,

Yes good advice, my spreadsheet is running with hopefully most of these costs included.
It is also encouraging me to upsize the boat to make it worthwhile.
I note with interest that the Oz market is finally having reality check and some prices are falling.
That said it's a worry for the local builders who are now having to compete with cheaper imports and might not survive like many other Australian industries.
If this happens when the dollar falls again prices will no doubt sky rocket again.
I know I should buy local, but what's on offer OS is just too tempting.
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Old 15-09-2010, 17:05   #45
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Hey Dragon. SoldBoats data is skewed by the dealers who want to keep their trade-in prices high and keep the real selling prices from being discovered. Whenever you see the same "listed price" and "selling price" then the dealer is concealing the actual selling price. If you lost access just ask any major broker to send you the data. They pay for this private database. Used yacht prices, especially cats, follow seasonal price tendencies and we almost always see the low prices for the year in August-September. Most buyers for these come in the market now and buy before the winter high-season. So, I'd get moving and make some offers now and NOT wait until October-November when you have much more competition. Boats under $200k are the most sought after and sell relatively fast nowadays.
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