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Old 08-09-2011, 09:40   #241
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

D&D,

I don't really have much of a security system, just the driveway alarms that monitor motion out to approx 100'. Here's a link to what I use: Wireless Driveway Alert & Driveway Alarm System

I just put Velcro on the back of the 4 sensors and stick them around the four sides of the boat. They will monitor and alarm any motion and radio a signal to the ding dong alarm in my stateroom. Very effective, for very little money. You can find them for $15 each if you search X 4 = $60.

tim
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:59   #242
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

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Originally Posted by dirkdig View Post
Well the aussie economy is slowing down now and house prices have been falling for the last 12 months, there is increased unemployment and interest rates are expected to come down.
The boat market is also slowing to nothing, so the US brokers/ sellers might want to grab offrs from Aussies while thy are still there.
True, and Aussies that are contemplating- sell the overpriced Aussie house and buy the USA/euro boat.
That nice arbitrage opportunity may evaporate soon.

I like the alarm idea
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Old 08-09-2011, 17:01   #243
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Australia appears to be in a two tier economy mode now, everyone in mining is going gang busters, the world is buying our dirt as fast as we can dig it up.
But as for the rest particularly manufacturing they are struggling, I know there are some specialist manufacturers who are doing OK but most are not.
The Aussie boat market is dropping too, lots of people are buying cheap new imported boats which is leaving a pile of trade ins sitting around with "make an offer owner committed elsewhere" comments on their inventories.
As for overpriced Aussie homes the good stuff is still selling well and for good money especially in Sydney, but the other stuff is falling.
I have quite a few friends offloading investment properties at a loss right now.
At least if I have to sell my boat I will have had some fun with it.
From my experience rental properties are all work no fun, so buy a boat whilst they are cheap.
In years to come 2009 to 20?? boats will be in short supply just like the 90s boats are now because of the recession back then.
The only difference is this one is a lot bigger.
Still India, China and Brazil are taking off and will be the new economic powerhouses of the world, so perhaps when they get into sailing the boat market will take off too.
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Old 08-09-2011, 20:32   #244
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

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dave777,

A boat is definitely a liability from the standpoint that you owe money monthly (cost to carry), but by definition it's still an asset, although a depreciating one. At least by accounting definition.

Regarding pirates, you have them on land as well. In fact, in the catastrophic situation you describe, there will be many more pirates or criminals on land than at sea. There's more criminals with cars, than boats.

The benefit of being at sea, is that you can escape to better surroundings. Like the uninhabited islands in the Abacos or Exumas, Bahamas or San Juan Islands off Panama. The remoter and more primitive the location, the less it will be affected by economic ca lapse.

The Bahamas welcomes your guns, just declare them and keep them on board. The chances of someone hijacking or robbing me while in my car, would be much easier than trying the same while I'm on my boat. I'm more isolated and would have more time to see them coming.

I use 4 Driveway Alarms, at $15 each (bow, transom, port and starboard sides) that ding dong me in my stateroom, when you get within 100', while at anchor. I don't have that kind of warning in my car.

With the increasing probability of economic ca lapse, this is a subject relevant to all of us. Brain storming our strategies and alternatives can only benefit us all. Personally, I like the boat idea, but then I'm always looking for an excuse to spend more time on the boat.
TimBrenner,

Yes, you are right boat is an asset, I was just trying to be funny. What I should have said is that a boat is NOT an investment. Neither is a house, but at least a house or RE has a rational chance of generating income. Wish I could collect a 'citizen's fine' every time hear a boat broker describe a boat purchase as an investment.

We agree, a boat generates EXPENSE. If you are looking at your finances, and one of your assets is just generating expenses for you, and it's not appreciating or -gasp- depreciating, it's a good chance that it is a boat.

I wrote that I was half joking when thinking about a boat for escape. Look at all of the flash mobs today. Look at the Rodney King 'insurrection'. In the past 24 hours there were just 100 or so union guys on the West coast who kidnapped security guards and threatened a cop with bats, because a diff company got the contract. No arrests! Who the hell is going to take protect us? And right now we only have writing on the wall - the social security / medicare / public pension / quantitative easing schemes haven't even hit the fan yet. What happens then?

I just can't muster an argument against survivalism.

---------

That's a neat idea with the alarms. Even just for normal use, while away from the boat.

You've found they really work in practise, even with waves and boat pitching? If they are infrared, I guess it's less motion than it is heat sensing.

I've read horror stories about cruisers getting attacked in the Caribbean.
Thing is, if it's the real deal, you'd have to act incredibly decisively and fast. You'd need some real cojones, have something at the ready and know how to use it, wake up really really quick.

Or is having some flashing leds, and radio distress transmission on a loudspeaker part of the plan?

Might be usefull to hook up something, motion alarm to cell phone. You get a call when you've dingied into town and learn some yokel's found out the hard way that you're all out of beer.

They've been selling car alarms for years that page your keyring, or call your cell phone. Don't know about their range. Dependent upon comm service of course.
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Old 09-09-2011, 13:58   #245
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Simple answer; most consumers don't explore the market like you have. These fools just pay whatever the broker prices the boat at. Cat brokers are notorious BTW! Use your NADA price guide and don't pay a nickle more! I'm in 'the same buyers boat' you are BTW. Good Luck!
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Old 09-09-2011, 15:33   #246
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Just glanced at a few cats on the NADA guide and as I remember they are grossly under valued. Good luck buying a cat for NADA value that isn't a complete wreck.
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Old 09-09-2011, 15:41   #247
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Here is a list showing what leopard 47 catamaran sold for

Length
Boats Year Codes Listed US$ Sold US$ Location
47' Robertson & Caine Leopard 2004 S U TD FG 419,000 (04/05) 419,000 (03/06) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2004 S U SD FG 335,000 (10/10) 300,000 (12/10) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2003 S U SD FG 389,000 (09/10) 370,000 (11/10) MD, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2001 S U TD FG 359,000 (01/06) 309,000 (02/07) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2001 S U TD FG 359,000 (04/06) 359,000 (09/06) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2001 S U TD FG 369,000 (03/06) 369,000 (07/06) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2001 S U TD FG 339,000 (03/06) 325,000 (04/07) Bahamas
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2004 S U TD FG 579,000 (11/05) 579,000 (06/06) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2004 S U TD FG 539,000 (10/05) 539,000 (01/06) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2003 S U TD FG 425,000 (01/06) 415,000 (03/07) St. Maarten/St. Martin
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2004 S N TD FG 489,000 (04/04) 475,000 (11/04) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2001 S U TD FG 618,638 (03/09) 428,288 (01/11) Australia
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2003 S U TD FG 335,000 (12/10) 315,000 (05/11) FL, USA
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2002 S U TD FG 319,000 (12/10) 265,000 (12/10) Honduras
47' Robertson & Caine Leop... 2002 S U TD FG 319,000 (01/11) 295,000 (02/11) Honduras
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 305,000 (03/08) 305,000 (11/08) Belize
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2006 S U TD FG 335,000 (06/10) 310,000 (10/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2006 S U TD FG 309,000 (03/10) 295,000 (09/10) Belize
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2005 S U TD FG 400,000 (12/07) 400,000 (02/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2005 S N TD FG 320,000 (07/10) 300,000 (12/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 389,000 (04/07) 320,000 (11/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 365,993 (12/08) 303,817 (10/09) Seychelles
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 360,000 (01/09) 325,000 (03/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 340,000 (01/06) 355,000 (02/08) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 315,000 (05/09) 280,000 (02/11) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 310,000 (12/08) 259,000 (12/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 305,000 (02/10) 285,000 (12/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 400,000 (09/07) 370,000 (06/08) St. Lucia
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 350,000 (01/07) 325,000 (06/08) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 349,000 (12/06) 320,000 (12/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 344,000 (06/06) 319,000 (11/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 295,000 (09/07) 255,000 (10/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 275,000 (01/10) 250,000 (11/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2002 S U TD FG 299,000 (11/07) 265,000 (03/08) FL, USA
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 335,000 (03/09) 315,000 (09/09) St. Lucia
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 329,000 (05/06) 300,000 (10/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 320,000 (05/06) 320,000 (06/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 315,000 (09/07) 290,000 (03/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 280,000 (03/06) 275,000 (06/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 350,000 (08/06) 340,000 (05/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 359,000 (09/06) 335,000 (07/07) St. Lucia
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 335,000 (04/07) 315,000 (04/08) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 375,000 (01/10) 325,000 (08/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2005 S U TD FG 320,000 (05/10) 310,000 (10/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 315,000 (10/08) 290,000 (08/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2005 S U TD FG 550,000 (10/07) 547,500 (12/07) Panama
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2005 S U TD FG 520,000 (08/07) 496,250 (03/08) Other
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 475,000 (03/08) 450,000 (04/08) Virgin Islands (US)
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 349,000 (10/09) 285,000 (12/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2003 S U TD FG 319,000 (12/07) 285,000 (11/08) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2002 S U TD FG 295,000 (08/06) 280,000 (11/08) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 289,000 (12/07) 286,000 (10/08) RI, USA
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 264,000 (06/07) 235,000 (12/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 359,000 (03/07) 325,000 (10/07) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2004 S U TD FG 335,000 (12/08) 295,000 (12/09) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2008 P U TD FG 495,000 (07/09) 475,000 (06/10) British Virgin Islands
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 339,000 (06/10) 310,000 (10/10) Honduras
47' Robertson and Caine Le... 2001 S U TD FG 300,000 (05/07) 276,667 (05/08) MD, USA

P=Power, S=Sail, C=Commercial
N=New, U=Used
S=Single, T=Twin, D=Diesel, G=Gas/Petrol
W=Wood, ST=Steel, AL=Aluminum, FG=Fiberglass, CP=Composite, FC=Ferro-Cement
O=Other/None, =Full Specs, =Photos, =Video Brochure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 09-09-2011, 16:53   #248
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
Just glanced at a few cats on the NADA guide and as I remember they are grossly under valued. Good luck buying a cat for NADA value that isn't a complete wreck.
I've been looking at NADA too, and I can't believe the low valuations they show.
Boats listed at 250,000, not cats though, they show $130,000.
That's nearly 50% under list price.
Many others I tried were 35 - 40% under.

Are their figures based on actual sales averages, or an accountants calculation of purchase price plus extras, less depreciation, and unrelated to current market realities?

Anyone know the answer?
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Old 09-09-2011, 17:00   #249
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

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Originally Posted by chris smith View Post
Here is a list showing what leopard 47 catamaran sold for

Length
Boats Year Codes Listed US$ Sold US$ Location
47' Robertson & Caine Leopard 2004 S U TD FG 419,000 (04/05) 419,000 (03/06) FL, USA
Hi Chris,
Not exactly. What you are listing is the last listed, or asking, price at the time the boat sold. There is nothing requiring brokers to update a listing at the time of sale to be the actual sales price. In fact, the soldboats 'disclosure' makes it clear that there is no audit etc.
Don't you know anyone who's sold their boat and then they see the listing still at that 'other' price?

On the other hand, NADA gets its data from banks. Banking officers are subject to criminal liability if they file anything fraudulently. Of course, not every boat sale is with a loan and NADA has to fill in the gaps with model just like BuC does. NADA -> what banks report as sales price. BuC and Soldboats / Yachtworld -> what boat brokers report.

Two additional factors which skew yachtworld prices upwards. Those boats have an additional commission included in the price varies but could be 10% on average. Also, generally brokers won't spend their time with boats that are not of better values and in reasonable condition. So broker sold boats, overall, may tend to be better boats. Estate sales, repos, divorce, sold by owner, etc. are excluded.

I'd say good luck getting much higher than NADA if your a seller. While I'm sure it happens, for as long as you don't sell the boat yards are happy to at least have someone paying rent.

I new someone who had over $100,000 in baseball cards, and paraphenalia. Of course, he 'only' spent $40K or so. He had a pricelist. The pricelists are free, by the way. Guess who makes up the free pricelists? Guess what happened to thousands of baseball card 'investors'?
Sure, boats are different, they are useful. But the bogus pricing reporting is unfortunately somewhat similar to baseball cards. If it was the fish market in NYC then some power hungry politician would have cleaned it up by now, but heck it's only rich people.
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Old 09-09-2011, 17:26   #250
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by timbenner View Post
dave777,

A boat is definitely a liability from the standpoint that you owe money monthly (cost to carry), but by definition it's still an asset, although a depreciating one. At least by accounting definition.

Regarding pirates, you have them on land as well. In fact, in the catastrophic situation you describe, there will be many more pirates or criminals on land than at sea. There's more criminals with cars, than boats.

The benefit of being at sea, is that you can escape to better surroundings. Like the uninhabited islands in the Abacos or Exumas, Bahamas or San Juan Islands off Panama. The remoter and more primitive the location, the less it will be affected by economic ca lapse.

The Bahamas welcomes your guns, just declare them and keep them on board. The chances of someone hijacking or robbing me while in my car, would be much easier than trying the same while I'm on my boat. I'm more isolated and would have more time to see them coming.

I use 4 Driveway Alarms, at $15 each (bow, transom, port and starboard sides) that ding dong me in my stateroom, when you get within 100', while at anchor. I don't have that kind of warning in my car.

With the increasing probability of economic ca lapse, this is a subject relevant to all of us. Brain storming our strategies and alternatives can only benefit us all. Personally, I like the boat idea, but then I'm always looking for an excuse to spend more time on the boat.
Hi we are also interested in the alarm system you have said about , where from make etc Thanks
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Old 09-09-2011, 20:08   #251
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Hi Dave
With regards to your lengthy reply...i purchased one of those leopards.The asking price and selling price is correct and yes the seller had to pay commission. , so i can varify that at least the facts on my purchase are correct
You are quoting the first sale on the list which was 2005...before the crash.Take a look at the rest of the listing!

I disagree with " I'd say good luck getting much higher than NADA if your a seller. While I'm sure it happens, for as long as you don't sell the boat yards are happy to at least have someone paying rent."

I have been to look at 2 leopards for sale.A friend has asked me to look at these 2 that he was interested in.He is a cash buyer but neither seller would budge on there price .The asking prices were 230k and 199K.10 year plus boats , the latter needing a lot of work
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Old 09-09-2011, 20:44   #252
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Out of the 7 cats we've owned we have never payed or sold anywhere close to as low as the NADA value. I'd hate to tell an owner of a 1993 Privilege 39 in great shape that his boat is only worth $85,000! Sorry the NADA values don't ad up.
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Old 09-09-2011, 21:20   #253
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by welshdiver View Post
Hi we are also interested in the alarm system you have said about , where from make etc Thanks
I bought 4 of these (driveway alarms):

( Wireless Driveway Alert & Driveway Alarm System ),

One for each side of the boat. Stuck velcro on the back of the sensors and stuck them on each side. The sensors scan roughly 180 degrees and 100' out, but they also have an adjustment for distance. If anything moves within that area, the receiver ding dongs you in your stateroom. Simple and effective.

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Old 10-09-2011, 09:58   #254
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

Pricing
Suggested List PriceLow
RetailAverage RetailBase Price:$154,500$97,600$110,600

I guess I will be keeping mine.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:04   #255
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Re: Catamarans - Current Market Situation

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Pricing
Suggested List PriceLow
RetailAverage RetailBase Price:$154,500$97,600$110,600

I guess I will be keeping mine.
Did you get those prices of the NADA?
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