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Old 15-08-2019, 12:18   #1
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Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I have been thinking of cat, mainly a lagoon 440, so been researching them a lot lately, heard some condomarans don't point to well, the same old story.


I came across a video on youtube, a guy beating into winds mid pacific on a FP Helia 44, complaining of just wanting to turn on the engines.


A screen shot of his nav gear showed 49 degrees AWA, 69 Degrees TWA and 5.9kn boat speed with 15.9kn true and 18.9kn apparent wind speeds.


Adding leeway??? 5 - 10 degrees??


150 - 160 degree tack through the water?


Are they really that bad???


Heard someone on here review a modern leopard 40 they chartered with similar rants.


So does anyone care to share the performance of their cats, preferably with pics of instrument readings to back them up?
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Old 15-08-2019, 12:20   #2
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Nothing to add, but want to Follow this.
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Old 15-08-2019, 12:46   #3
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

You should post the video.

I'm no expert here when it comes to sailing, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the folks here will be able to tell you better.

As far as I know, pointing high means having to read the wind actively and tacking at the best window. At least that's what my understanding of physics seem to say.
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Old 15-08-2019, 12:48   #4
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Depends on the cat.

I'm a mono sailor but been on a few cats, I've seen ones that have as bad performance as you describe, but I've been on others that point almost as well as my boat while going far faster, and there are a few owners on here of ****-hot performance cats that probably point better than most monos

You can't really generalise
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Old 15-08-2019, 12:52   #5
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

You know, I've always wondered if the case was that the cats with the big squarish cab fronts like the Leopard 40, like giant turbulators or air brakes.
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Old 15-08-2019, 13:27   #6
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I understand the designs have been getting worse (Sailing) over time.

Let's compare the 2005-2009 Leopard 40 vs the newer Leopard 40. It grew 6" at the water line and somehow it is 40% heavier. Sail area remained virtually the same (1040 ft2 vs 1032 ft2). I'm not an expert, but that seems like a recipe for reduced sailing performance. Add in the less aerodynamic shape on top of that.

I believe Lagoon has had the similar redesigns adding a lot of weight.
The lagoon 440 is likely a lighter design as compared to the new ones.

I'll be replacing the props to Flex-o-Fold in the very near future. I just ordered them this week. I hope this makes a difference because I'm not thrilled with the upwind sailing performance. Let's call it 115-125 degrees.
I also need new sails as they are original to the boat (late 2007 build).
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Old 15-08-2019, 13:47   #7
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I understand the designs have been getting worse (Sailing) over time.
This is EXACTLY the feedback I'm getting from a lot of cruisers looking at new boats.

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Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
Let's compare the 2005-2009 Leopard 40 vs the newer Leopard 40. It grew 6" at the water line and somehow it is 40% heavier. Sail area remained virtually the same (1040 ft2 vs 1032 ft2). I'm not an expert, but that seems like a recipe for reduced sailing performance. Add in the less aerodynamic shape on top of that.
Yes, yes! 100% correct. The sail planform did not change you are right in assuming that the bigger vessel would be a fair bit less efficient than the originals.

The topside aero, well, right on that too. The first thing I was told about cruising cats:

Want good performance? Don't get slabby sides. This bid to fit everything PLUS space into a 40 to 45 foot package seems a bit ridiculous to be honest.

Quote:
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I believe Lagoon has had the similar redesigns adding a lot of weight.
The lagoon 440 is likely a lighter design as compared to the new ones.
It literally is, correct again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I'll be replacing the props to Flex-o-Fold in the very near future. I just ordered them this week. I hope this makes a difference because I'm not thrilled with the upwind sailing performance. Let's call it 115-125 degrees.
Will you be doing a video? I would love to learn more.

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I also need new sails as they are original to the boat (late 2007 build).
More sail area?
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Old 15-08-2019, 14:10   #8
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Anyone with specific experience of a lagoon 440 , would be nice? preferably a non owner, cut down the own boat bias.


Glad to see flying scot coming in with some numbers. Still much better than 150 degrees..


So maybe its a trend with the new condomarans , sailing to the wind becoming less important than living space ad small, safe for charter, sail areas vs weight?


PS i call em condomarans in light heartedness , as i really do fancy a lagoon 440, but only if the windward performance is somewhat acceptable and would
like to know about other fairly modern roomy non sporty cats to see if any can sail reasonably well,keepthe options open.
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Old 15-08-2019, 14:23   #9
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Hi - I can not speak for Lagoons (too pricey for me). However my 42 foot glass over ply cat with fixed keels is at best close hauled speed at about 35 degrees apparent wind angle if flat water and upto 25knots apparrent wind speed with full sail (main twisted off by then). Out at sea the sea state makes more difference than wind speed. Need to start a bit eased after the tack to get a good water flow over the low aspect keels then harden up. I have attached a video.
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Old 15-08-2019, 14:25   #10
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

I own a 2003 Outremer 45 and the same vintage Pdq 36 that was custom fitted with boards . My #are very good on these to boats so not much use to you as the op. I did want to relate to you a conversation I had with the the owner of an Amel 40 something who is going around the world. I had never been on one so as I visited I asked about performance etc . Her reply to the upwind question was the boat was so poor in that direction that she would not really consider it .
I say this. Not comment about the Amel or any other boat but to make sure that comparisons are done on boats that share the same design criteria .There are lots of crusing monohulls that aren't great up wind and lots of Multhulls that aren't either .
You just have to pick what you can live with
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Old 15-08-2019, 14:34   #11
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

2019 Seawind 1160 Lite. Fixed keels, but the boat is light, and we have carbon sails. Upwind best VMG at 30-32 deg AWA. (We sail offshore with the autopilot set to steer to wind at 32 deg AWA). Can point as high as 26-28 deg AWA but its slower. (But sometimes helpful if trying to make it around a reef without another tack!) Tacking angle 90-100 deg.

We sail a lot. We motor only in very light wind. We enjoy sailing past boats with their sails up and motors running!
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Old 15-08-2019, 14:54   #12
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

https://youtu.be/34qgJRprAlE
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Old 15-08-2019, 14:56   #13
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Dave View Post
Hi - I can not speak for Lagoons (too pricey for me). However my 42 foot glass over ply cat with fixed keels is at best close hauled speed at about 35 degrees apparent wind angle if flat water and upto 25knots apparrent wind speed with full sail (main twisted off by then). Out at sea the sea state makes more difference than wind speed. Need to start a bit eased after the tack to get a good water flow over the low aspect keels then harden up. I have attached a video.
Me watching this video:

First pass: Kiwi Dave's bookin' it across, look how close to the shore he is! The control! The skills!

Second pass: Ok now you're just showing off! I need to spend more time sailing.
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Old 15-08-2019, 15:09   #14
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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That looks like a really nice boat and a great day for sailing . I have never seen telltales on the back side of the cabin though.
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Old 15-08-2019, 15:39   #15
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Re: Catamaran tacking angles , really that bad???

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I also need new sails as they are original to the boat (late 2007 build).
Changing from 10 year+ old sails to new ones will make a big difference upwind for sure.
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