Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

[D&D]

Originally Posted by krafthaus

I know there are a lot of cats for sale in the Mediterranean, but interesting there are few showing on the sold list.

We suspect the same may be said (more actual activity than shown on the list) for the OZ market. Factor/Andrew, would you agree?

Good luck on your purchase Charter Cat!

[krafthaus]

Originally Posted by Charter Cat

They are however all charter boats so as the owners will be spread accross Europe (some perhaps outside), they shouldn't be tied to the Greece economy.

That's a valid point for sure. But I wonder how the Greek (or European for that matter) brokers would be to deal with compared to North American brokers. A bit of traveling would be worth the cost of a plane ticket for a good deal.

And starting off in the Med for a while could be pretty nice too.

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

That's impossible to say from the data here. But I'd posit that the difference between selling price and how much the seller actually put in his pocket is much smaller for the privately sold boats, wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't.

[dennisail]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

No, I wouldn't.

How so? Do you think the commission is more than compensated for by having a broker annoy the crap out if potential buyers with BS stories and a general ignorance about what he is selling?

These days as long as the boat is on the relevant websites, I can not see the point of a broker unless you cant get to the boat to show potential customers. Every time I have been shown a boat by a broker I wished the owner was there so I could actually find out genuine info about the boat, rather than the BS stories the brokers told me.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by dennisail

Since there are a few insiders here, do any of you know what the go was with the extended Schoinning 1420 built in Indo that went for something like $250k? Was it a real POS or what?

Yes, it was. Jeff Schionning sold good plans. Quality stops here. These were not followed and builder did not authorise modifications. Built "rough as guts" out of balsa cored Duflex. Wired in true "south-east Asian" rural village style. No bargain.

[dennisail]

Thought as much. I should have taken a look anyway though for interest sake, but I guess the cost to get it up to scratch would have been more than the cost to just by a decent one to begin with...

[Charter Cat]

Originally Posted by krafthaus

That's a valid point for sure. But I wonder how the Greek (or European for that matter) brokers would be to deal with compared to North American brokers. A bit of traveling would be worth the cost of a plane ticket for a good deal.

And starting off in the Med for a while could be pretty nice too.

Not sure. I have bought/sold property in US and Sweden and bought/sold boats in US and between these countries there are differencies. Also take what I write with a grain of salt as some might not be 100% accurate.

For real estate, US agent fees are much higher than Swedish (European too). In the US, an Estate Agent will start negotiating around a 5% fee where in Sweden it will 1.5%. Given the delta, there is room for a buying real estate agent to make money where in Sweden (Europe?) there isn't.

I think there will be similar pattern for yacht brokers between US/Europe.

I know that in some European countries its not easy to get the boat de-registred as the country wants to keep getting some revenue for the boat. This is important to understand before buying a boat.

To register the boat in a new country can be a nightmare, Sweden being such a country. If the boat is bigger than 40"x16" (all +40" cats), Sweden sees very little differens between a pleasure boat and an oil tanker. Your boat has to be individually measured by a Swedish measurer. They accept no documents even if exactly the same boat already exists in their registry. Your specific boat must be measured. If the boat lies in Greece, you have to pay for the measurer's travelling expenses to get there. Furthermore you have to provide all previous transactions on the boat in original (copies will not do) since new. IF the boat had three owners, all papers through the history of the boat must be provided in original.

Sorry for ranting, but when going out of the norm of what people do in your country, you have to do the homework yourself. You have to be sure the broker has knowledge done similar things before as if trubble, you will be on your own.

Btw, I'm Swedish and I found some workarounds that will work for me, even if they will not be perfectly legal by Swedish law.

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by dennisail

How so? Do you think the commission is more than compensated for by having a broker annoy the crap out if potential buyers with BS stories and a general ignorance about what he is selling?

I reread the post, and I misread what the other fella was saying. Since I can't edit my post, I'll retract my 'no I wouldn't' statement. I'll be clearer:

I assert that via broker, the selling price and the listing (asking) price deltas may be less, but then of course the seller gives the broker a commission; privately sold boats may have a bigger differential between asking and selling prices, but then there is no commission to be paid. I'm thinking that after all, there may be no difference in it for the bloke selling the boat (what he ends up with), to be honest...

...and that was my experience. As for brokers, like everything else, there's good and bad ones out there. It just depends on how much trouble the seller wants to go through. Given the scammers and time-wasters, (especially the tirekicker time-wasters), I do think a broker saves an assload of trouble, did for me, anyway. I never. ever. ever. ever...want to sell a boat myself, again.

[krafthaus]

Originally Posted by Charter Cat

Sorry for ranting, but when going out of the norm of what people do in your country, you have to do the homework yourself. You have to be sure the broker has knowledge done similar things before as if trouble, you will be on your own.

Thanks for the comments back Charter Cat. I'd have to agree, and bottom line is a buyer needs to do their research and gather information. Can pull the trigger once satisfied there is a good plan to proceed and hopefully, working with people who have gained your trust.

So the boat shopping continues and I'm not in a rush so there is time for all this.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

No, I wouldn't.

You wouldn't? You don't think brokers charge fees?

Ah. on reading further, you would...

[dennisail]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

I reread the post, and I misread what the other fella was saying. Since I can't edit my post, I'll retract my 'no I wouldn't' statement. I'll be clearer:

I assert that via broker, the selling price and the listing (asking) price deltas may be less, but then of course the seller gives the broker a commission; privately sold boats may have a bigger differential between asking and selling prices, but then there is no commission to be paid. I'm thinking that after all, there may be no difference in it for the bloke selling the boat (what he ends up with), to be honest...

...and that was my experience. As for brokers, like everything else, there's good and bad ones out there. It just depends on how much trouble the seller wants to go through. Given the scammers and time-wasters, (especially the tirekicker time-wasters), I do think a broker saves an assload of trouble, did for me, anyway. I never. ever. ever. ever...want to sell a boat myself, again.

That makes more sense. However I am interested to know why you think the selling price will be higher when sold though a broker?

Also IMO this whole concept of the asking price being only about 10% higher than the selling price seems like a bit of a red herring too. Because it does not consider many times did the seller had to drop the price before he sold it.

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by dennisail

That makes more sense. However I am interested to know why you think the selling price will be higher when sold though a broker?

When one has to pay the broker's commission, one would tend to be less amenable to negotiation. That, and it's not exactly in the broker's interest to lessen his percentage, so the broker isn't interested in advising seller to drop price either.

I've heard of people waiting for boats to be taken off from brokers' lists, and then they contact owners directly, because they think they'll get a better price without the broker involved.

Originally Posted by dennisail

Also IMO this whole concept of the asking price being only about 10% higher than the selling price seems like a bit of a red herring too. Because it does not consider many times did the seller had to drop the price before he sold it.

That's a good point.

[catabroker]

Originally Posted by colemj

Actually, the wink icon was about "yachtworld". The honesty level of the prices reported is assumed.

Having said that, I know four of the boats on that list and the sold price was accurate.

Mark

As for the correctness of the selling prices, I was involved in quite a few Leopard catamaran brokerage sales, and the numbers that are quoted are correct. Any buyer or seller will receive the same information in a "market analysis" when it comes to listing or selling a catamaran.

Peter Wiersema / Leopard specialist

[D&D]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

When one has to pay the broker's commission, one would tend to be less amenable to negotiation.

That's certainly true.

Originally Posted by tamicatana

...and it's not exactly in the broker's interest to lessen his percentage, so the broker isn't interested in advising seller to drop price either.

We're not so sure about that one though. The broker is interested in making the sale. A reduction in sale price will, if it produces the sale, be far far better than losing the buyer to another vessel! If real estate is any guide (where we admit to far more experience than yacht sales!) the agents tend to very quickly become advocates for lower prices (to both parties!) in their efforts to secure the sale.

Originally Posted by tamicatana

I've heard of people waiting for boats to be taken off from brokers' lists, and then they contact owners directly, because they think they'll get a better price without the broker involved.

It's not clear here whether the "people waiting" actually looked at the vessel while it was still on the brokers' lists; that can be very important in determining the outcome for the vendor. We've heard of brokers who go after sellers in the above scenario to claim commission on the basis of the terms of the agency where typically buyers introduced is enough to trigger the commission entitlement. Such claims can and do succeed, leaving the vendors with a whole lot less cash (probably reducing their price and then still having to pay the commission) than they might've had by simply proceeding with the sale with the broker!

As we observed earlier, brokers are like any professional service...a good one is very valuable and a bad one can hurt, a lot. So it's easy...find a good broker...or, if you're prepared to put in the effort, do it yourself.

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by D&D

It's not clear here whether the "people waiting" actually looked at the vessel while it was still on the brokers' lists; that can be very important in determining the outcome for the vendor. We've heard of brokers who go after sellers in the above scenario to claim commission on the basis of the terms of the agency where typically buyers introduced is enough to trigger the commission entitlement. Such claims can and do succeed, leaving the vendors with a whole lot less cash (probably reducing their price and then still having to pay the commission) than they might've had by simply proceeding with the sale with the broker!

I don't imply in any way in my example that the seller deliberately pulled the listing from the broker to make more money/reduce commission/get rid of the broker, which is what you appear to suggest.

If a boat is on a broker listing for a long time (year or more), and if the boat is pulled out of advertising/listings, then it's not unheard of for buyers to contact the seller directly (if they've been watching and know the boat) to see whether the boat was sold or just pulled. In my example, there was no basis for the broker to claim commission, as the seller had no idea that a buyer was waiting.

My point of my example is, however, that there is, and you can see that right here at CF, reticence on the part of buyers to deal with brokers.