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Old 03-11-2010, 11:49   #1
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Catamaran Engine Placement - Which Brand Was it ?

Hello folks,

I'm recently back to the forum after a long hiatus. For quite a while I've been avoiding anything "boat" related. Now that my divorce is near complete, I'm thinking about my future freedom again and possibly heading for the Phils forever. I still want a Cat, a new Gemini being third choice or a "newer" Manta as 2nd choice. The first choice was a newer issue of either Leopard or Lagoon (I think?) that i had seen in a write-up months ago but can't seem to find it. The engine compartments and access hatches were actually outside and unconnected to the cabin areas and just forward of the "scoops". The compartments had tons of room in which to work and no issue to jerk one of the engines out if needed. The layout was excellent overall, but the engine placement really sold me. But WHAT the hell WAS it?? I can't find my links or bookmarks for the darned thing anywhere!! Any help appreciated! I think the LOA was 42-45'......

Thanks!!
Fish
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:54   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Hello folks,

I'm recently back to the forum after a long hiatus. For quite a while I've been avoiding anything "boat" related. Now that my divorce is near complete, I'm thinking about my future freedom again and possibly heading for the Phils forever. I still want a Cat, a new Gemini being third choice or a "newer" Manta as 2nd choice. The first choice was a newer issue of either Leopard or Lagoon (I think?) that i had seen in a write-up months ago but can't seem to find it. The engine compartments and access hatches were actually outside and unconnected to the cabin areas and just forward of the "scoops". The compartments had tons of room in which to work and no issue to jerk one of the engines out if needed. The layout was excellent overall, but the engine placement really sold me. But WHAT the hell WAS it?? I can't find my links or bookmarks for the darned thing anywhere!! Any help appreciated! I think the LOA was 42-45'......

Thanks!!
Fish
maybe this?
Moorings 4600: Charter catamaran sailboat available throughout the Caribbean and the world.
is really a Leopard.
Phils sounds good - good luck mate
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Old 03-11-2010, 14:37   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Hello folks,

I'm recently back to the forum after a long hiatus. For quite a while I've been avoiding anything "boat" related. Now that my divorce is near complete, I'm thinking about my future freedom again and possibly heading for the Phils forever. I still want a Cat, a new Gemini being third choice or a "newer" Manta as 2nd choice. The first choice was a newer issue of either Leopard or Lagoon (I think?) that i had seen in a write-up months ago but can't seem to find it. The engine compartments and access hatches were actually outside and unconnected to the cabin areas and just forward of the "scoops". The compartments had tons of room in which to work and no issue to jerk one of the engines out if needed. The layout was excellent overall, but the engine placement really sold me. But WHAT the hell WAS it?? I can't find my links or bookmarks for the darned thing anywhere!! Any help appreciated! I think the LOA was 42-45'......

Thanks!!
Fish
The engine compartments you describe could be in a 43 to 45 ft Privilege. A few years ago, 5 of us snatched out the two Yanmar 3jh engines and gears and replaced them with two new 4jh and ZF gears - in a weekend, using only the boom and a chain fall. Engine rooms are large enough for two to work.
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Old 03-11-2010, 15:00   #4
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Eureka!

Eureka! It was "Indigo Moon"! A 2001 Lagoon 380 that was....dammit, SOLD.

Fine, any Lagoon 380 owners out there want to talk about their baby? I liked the 3 cabin version with the entire starboard hull as the owners suite.
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Old 03-11-2010, 16:08   #5
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Fishman Tx,

Are you at liveinthephilippines.com? Lots of good information there for experienced, and inexperienced people moving to the Phils.

As far as the boat goes. Don't be shy to look at cold molded, custom, boats. Imagine has exactly what you desribe as engine room space........i2f
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Old 03-11-2010, 16:46   #6
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There are several production cats with separate engine rooms. All the newer FP and Lagoon models have 'em. Although, I would dispute that the working space is larger than an engine under a berth. Berths are usually at the widest place in the hull. But, I wouldn't trade my separate engine rooms, I can make a mess in there and the admiral isn't yelling at me to clean it up!!

Remember, with separate engine rooms you have to accept saildrives. Engine under the berth can generally get you inside transmissions & shafts.
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Old 03-11-2010, 17:38   #7
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John
Why YES I am. Doing LOTS of homework! As for the cat, trying to keep the price down around 240k or less w/TTL. LOL. Dang, John, I'm sorry. I'd almost forgotten about you'n Mel. Sorry first day back. LOL. Actually, had started considering the Phils last month when I came across the website you mentioned (I'm on Yahoo group too). I spent the entire weekend for the most part, going thru the entire site, reading every word. Lot's of good reasons to go there and retire. Hard luck on a lot of the Ladies there though. Lot's of "separated" women with no recourse but to live life "alone". Law sux, but it is what it is....



DotDun,
I can't stand the smell. Gets into everything. I figured the noise and smell would be a lot less if they were "out". But also the ease of removal for work. Definitely win-win. And no Admiral to gripe!
Ding, dong, the witch is dead. Which ole witch? The wicked witch.....
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:25   #8
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Fish, I wouldn't call it a win/win. Yes, interior noise/potential odours are reduced (and you don't have to remove a mattress/cushion to gain access), but:

1. keeping weight out of the ends of cats tends to reduce hobby-horsing;
2. as has already been pointed out, you can often get shaft drives rather than saildrives;
3. the prop will be in front of the rudder (where it belongs);
4. there is typically much more room to work on diesels installed beneath berths (in mine, one can comfortably sit on the curve from the bridgedeck into the hulls and have open access to everything);
5. the location eliminates the risk of losing tools overboard;
6. In bad conditions, it is much more comfortable/safe to bleed/repair the diesels from below, rather than exkposed on the aft part of the hulls.
7. the diesels/electronics tend to suffer much less from water intrusion (mine are essentially rust-free after 16 years);
8. mounting the diesels further forward typically permits large collision bulkheads/flotation compartments aft.

I would suggest that the last point is the most critical as IMO cats should be unsinkable and uesable as a rescue platfrom, in order to be truly safe. In some recent photos posted on this site of (as I recall) a Lagoon that had been holed, the transoms were completely submerged and only the forward part of the coachouse/foredecks were above water. Yes, one could still say that it was unsinkable - but barely. However, no one could safely stay aboard even in the relatively calm conditions in which the photos were taken.

I am not saying that it is impossible to have adequate floatation/collision bulkheads at the sterns with diesels mounted well aft, but as regards any particular boat, I would certainly approach the issue with some scepticism.

Brad
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Old 04-11-2010, 07:34   #9
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Everything is a compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
1. keeping weight out of the ends of cats tends to reduce hobby-horsing;
2. as has already been pointed out, you can often get shaft drives rather than saildrives.
Yep, saildrives are harder to work on than transmissions that are inside the hull. But, the prop alignment is more efficient.

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3. the prop will be in front of the rudder (where it belongs);
My props are in front of the rudders. BUT, I don't have enough room for a folding prop. I do believe most aft engine cats up to ~40' do have the engines behind the props. I chartered a Lagoon 380 in BVI and purposely tested steerage at low speed with one engine. It's a challenge below 1-1.5 knots of speed, this is more incentive to keep the engines maintained and running.

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
4. there is typically much more room to work on diesels installed beneath berths (in mine, one can comfortably sit on the curve from the bridgedeck into the hulls and have open access to everything);
My starboard engine room is nice size, no problems. The port side has the genset sitting above the engine room which means working on the port side of the port engine one must be in pretzel configuration (of course, losing 30lbs. would also help).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
6. In bad conditions, it is much more comfortable/safe to bleed/repair the diesels from below, rather than exkposed on the aft part of the hulls.
You are suppose to perform maintenance before you leave the dock! Fortunately, my only experience in an engine room off shore was calm seas.

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7. the diesels/electronics tend to suffer much less from water intrusion (mine are essentially rust-free after 16 years);
The flip side is that I can sustain a raw water leak and not fill the whole bilge, there are solid bulkheads fore and aft of the engine. Plus I believe the engine sits higher compared to the waterline. If I spring a leak, the waterline is at the top of the oil pan, hence protecting the engine block, intake, alternator, etc. If the bilge pump fails, a raw water leak will put ~20-30 gallons of water in the engine room before it reaches the waterline. Of course, if the leak is after the raw water pump and the engine is running, all bets are off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
8. mounting the diesels further forward typically permits large collision bulkheads/flotation compartments aft.
I feel pretty comfortable with the amount of floatation aft. Basically the bottom half of the scoops are filled with foam. Rumors have it that my boat, holed and lightly loaded, will sit fairly level fore/aft with ~1 foot of water above the cabin sole. But, I'll let somebody else prove that one!

Again, everything is a compromise. I've got ~1600 hours on my saildrives and reading the service manual, the service life of the shaft bearings is 1500 hours. So, next bottom job, the saildrives require a little more work than just seals and oil change. Owning saildrives one must be in 'airplane maintenance mode', meaning, pay attention to preventative maintenance, don't wait for things to break before fixing. Compared to a transmission inside the boat where I would do the repairs myself at my convenience.

The goodness with aft engines is certainly no diesel smell in the living space, nor lifting mattresses every morning to check engine oil. I can have the engine oils checked before the admiral even wakes up!

I do believe that engines inside the living space can be properly maintained to mitigate the majority of smells, spills, etc. I made my choice years ago and would most likely make the same choice again if I were choosing my next boat. It's the times when I pay to have the saildrives worked on that makes me want a shaft drive.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:35   #10
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Good points Dotdun. I was not suggesting that either layout was preferable in absolute terms, only responding to the suggestion that having the engines mounted aft with saildrives is a "win/win" situation (and we seem to agree that it is not).

I was also not suggesting that all cats with aft mounted diesels have inadequate flotation in the transoms (although from pictures you have probably also seen, that certainly seemed to be the case with at least one boat built by a competitor of FP).
I was only suggesting that one should approach that issue with some 'scepticism', make inquiries and satisfy yourself once you have the facts (as you have done).

In response to one of your comments about under-berth diesels, however, I should point out that mine do not drain into the primary bilge. Rather, the compartment is sealed off and there are separate bilge pumps for these compartments.

I must confess that I have headed out without checking the oil while my fiance was still asleep. Yes, I could have/should have checked it the night before, but.... In any event, I agree with you totally about the ease of getting at the diesels for checking the oil with your layout (and I hate to have to unmake/remake the berth simply to check the oil).

Furthermore, while I have no issues with smell and while the noise is muffled by both sound insulation and the mattress, I must also admit that your layout is nevertheless superior in that regard (and while the risk of fire with a diesel is relatively minor, if there were ever an electrical fire, I would far rather have the engine compartment outside of the accomodation).

Ultimately, so long as I was satisfied that there was adequate floatation aft (and that there was adequate access to service the engines), neither layout would be a deal-breaker for me.

Brad
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:29   #11
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Good points Dotdun. I was not suggesting that either layout was preferable in absolute terms, only responding to the suggestion that having the engines mounted aft with saildrives is a "win/win" situation (and we seem to agree that it is not).
I agree, I can live with either configuration.

And like you, I'm not trying to convince anyone that what I have is best for them. I'm just expressing my experiences and thoughts and hopefully the OP can make the best informed decision for their needs/desires.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
In response to one of your comments about under-berth diesels, however, I should point out that mine do not drain into the primary bilge. Rather, the compartment is sealed off and there are separate bilge pumps for these compartments.
This is good, at least the designers of your boat put some thought into that aspect. My comment stems from a somewhat rigorous inspection of the Antares 44i at last year's Miami Boat Show. Don't get me wrong, that's a beautiful boat and I would love to own one, but you can imagine what went thru my head when I lifted the cabin soles and pondered what can go wrong with those engines mounted in what looked like the very lowest part of the boat. Again, a beautiful boat, but IMO, not the best place for the engines from a long-term maintenance POV. I could live with it, just different issues to deal with.

One has to chose their poison, because all boats have a set amount! Mine is saildrives and no ability for a folding prop (feathering, yes, but I can't bring myself to shell out the $$).
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:21   #12
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Ok, then. My personal preference would be for the saildrives and engines out. Not only the noise and smells but also because of the saildrives (water intrusion). As long as everything is properly maintained their shouldn't be too many issues with engines out and saildrives have their own headaches. Every configuration has it's good points and bad and it basically gets down to " 'druthers". Re: win/win, it is for me.
(Oh and my price point should have 340k, not 240. Must have fat fingered it or just brainfart...)

But now for the next question....
All things being equal and price not withstanding, which boat would be better overall? Considering the builder, design, track record, and performance...

Manta 38?
or
Lagoon 380?

The reason for 38 is I will be singlehanding initially.
OH! Also, the Admiral's position is now open for any who might apply.
(or should i say, the Admirals berth is now available?)

BTW, Brad, how do you like your Solaris? We have an older 38 in our 'yard at the moment. I was wondering about performance....
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:51   #13
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But now for the next question....
All things being equal and price not withstanding, which boat would be better overall? Considering the builder, design, track record, and performance...

Manta 38?
or
Lagoon 380?
I believe the US built Manta 38 engines are under the aft berth w/saildrives. I don't know about the Prout Manta.
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Old 04-11-2010, 14:21   #14
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Hey Brad, believe it or not I just read an article by a surveyor who said that a non turbocharged diesel has 5 times the chance of catching fire than a gas motor. Surprised me!
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Old 04-11-2010, 14:48   #15
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I would save the Admiral applications for arrival in the Phils. Get a buddy to help you sail her across the Pacific..........i2f
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