Catamaran Engine Placement - Which Brand Was it ?

[Fishman_Tx]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

I would save the Admiral applications for arrival in the Phils. Get a buddy to help you sail her across the Pacific..........i2f

Heh, heh...

That's the other half of the plan! I've got a best bud just itchin' to do a trip. His baby still on the hard and nowhere near ready yet.

Wonder if one could live in the boonies and use the cat for goin to town? hmm... Might just get the Gemini after all and save myself some cash. I don't plan on long distance cruising except getting the boat to the Phils. Just Island hopping and coastal. Might do a run here and there but no RTW or globe-trotting.

Re: the Admiral's Berth, I may need to PM you on that score. I've a few questions that need a reality check about "protocol" and womens "marriage status" in the Phils. I'm hearing and have read to leave "separateds" alone as there is no hope for them short of shacking up (and that can land both of you in the clink) until they change the "no-divorce" policy. Man, that's a harsh way to have to live.

[Jeannius]

Fishman_TX... You may not like the engine out placement so much when an impeller fails while out in big seas. I recently had to get at the generator in my Privilege while getting hit by beam-on seas that reached the engine hatch at the top of the sugar scoop steps. Couldn't risk opening the hatch for fear of large amounts of salt water entering the engine compartment. So I just went through the under-bunk hatch instead. Couldn't do that on the configuration you like.

[imagine2frolic]

Originally Posted by Jeannius

Fishman_TX... You may not like the engine out placement so much when an impeller fails while out in big seas. I recently had to get at the generator in my Privilege while getting hit by beam-on seas that reached the engine hatch at the top of the sugar scoop steps. Couldn't risk opening the hatch for fear of large amounts of salt water entering the engine compartment. So I just went through the under-bunk hatch instead. Couldn't do that on the configuration you like.

Boats are like the English language. There's an exception to every rule........i2f

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Remember, with separate engine rooms you have to accept saildrives. Engine under the berth can generally get you inside transmissions & shafts.

You could have V drives, but the shaft angle is about 8deg.

[SuenosAzules]

I sailed quite a bit throughout the Caribbean on a Gemini 105 MC. I truly loved it. For many reasons. First being able to fit in smaller marinas with a smaller beam, the second was how easy it is to get at everything if something came up even in higher seas, and the third was the fact that the drive leg was liftable like an outboard so I did not have the galvanic corrosion worries like most do in foriegn ports (many marinas did not have grounded circuits abroad - trust me I checked). I do like the Lagoon however and the Leapord cats. But all in all the Gemini served me well. I had no major complaints.

[Southern Star]

Sorry for the delay in responding:

1. SMJ I am shocked that any type of diesel would pose a greater risk of fire!!!! Still makes no ssnse to me, but hey!

2. As to the performance of a Solaris, it depends upon what model you are considering. SMJ has a 36 which is VERY similar to a Manta (both pulled from designs by Eric Lerouge) and which performs quite well indeed. It has the same under-bridgedeck shape (compound curves) which really do tend to reduce slamming. The principal difference is with respect to interior finish - the Solaris, while extremely solidly built (to Lloyds 100 A1 unlimited offshore standards), nevertheless made use of a great deal of glued on carpeting/vinyl which will need replacing by now.

My boat (the Sunstream 40) was modified from the Cherokee 35 which was designed by Rod Macalpine-Downie (another boat which SMJ owned in the past, if I am not mistaken). Macalpine-Downey also designed the Tornado cat in the late 60's and some say that there have been virtually no improvements in hull design for performance daysailing cats since this seminal design.

Many of the same design elements are present in the Cherokee/Sunstream 40 - fine entry with small knuckles forward, u-shaped underbody with a minimal prismatic coefficient. Having said all of that, the performance of my boat is modest in absolute terms. Yes, she tacks readily even in light air. Yes, she performs well in reaching conditions. However her performance to windward leaves much to be desired (anything closer than about 50 degrees true causes a substantial drop in speed and, due to the relatively low bridgedeck, the risk of pounding).

Part of the problem with the Sunstream 40 was that when the boat was lengthened aft, the rig was also moved aft to permit a cutter rig - hardly ideal on the wind. However for a cruising boat, I have found that it is an ideal rig and I am prepared to lose some performance to windward for its other advantages:
1. the mast is mounted at the aft coachouse bulkhead, the strongest point of the boat and a location which permits all of the lines to be led directly to the cockpit without the need for turning blocks, etc.
2. the furling staysail works perfectly in heavy air and permits a heavier sail that can be reefed and used as a proper storm jib. This is a safety issue as it does not require going forward to install a galerider, or equivalent over the furled genoa. It also moves the storm sails inboard, where it should be and ensures proper sail shape when reefed down (reefing a genoa by about 85% ruins the shape and, since lighter weight dacron is used, leads to blown out sails).
3. Since there are separate tracks/winches for the staysail/storm jib, one can ensure proper lead angles.

The 32 was also pulled from an Eric Lerouge design (again, like the Manta) and perfroms extremely well.

The other Solaris Cats, including the original 36 and the 42, while extremely well built and comodious, tend to perform rather poorly and to suffer from extensive pounding.

Anyway, those are my comments on performance of Solaris cats. Others may differ.

Cheers!

Brad

[smj]

Brad, pull those diesels and put in a couple of outboards that can can be pulled out of the water while sailing. Guaranteed you will be amazed at the gain in performance

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by cat man do

You could have V drives, but the shaft angle is about 8deg.

Yes, I've wondered why I haven't seen any production cats with aft engines/V drive.

I wonder if designers have disgarded this as it actually pushes the weight back further.

Or it could be the saildrives are simply easier to assemble in a production environment.

Inquiring minds would like to know!

[Fishman_Tx]

Originally Posted by SuenosAzules

I sailed quite a bit throughout the Caribbean on a Gemini 105 MC. I truly loved it. For many reasons. First being able to fit in smaller marinas with a smaller beam, the second was how easy it is to get at everything if something came up even in higher seas, and the third was the fact that the drive leg was liftable like an outboard so I did not have the galvanic corrosion worries like most do in foriegn ports (many marinas did not have grounded circuits abroad - trust me I checked). I do like the Lagoon however and the Leapord cats. But all in all the Gemini served me well. I had no major complaints.

Considering that I've always liked the newer models, and the Gemini being an "economy" cat, it might behoove me to go that route as I have no intentions of living aboard for any length of time. Once in the Phils, it's going to be more of the "family camper" around the islands or for runs here and there. Probably better to save the money and go for the "Gemee". Slapdash has done real well with theirs and I'm not planning on no where near that kind of sailing. Put the $$ into upgrades....

[IslandHops]

The Privilege 39 has engines under the aft bunks. Entry is under the seats in the cockpit, and they are shaft drive. Access to the front of the engines is a bit tough, but they are in separate compartments and you still have secure access without being out on the transom. There is room to replace an engine (I swapped mine out solo) and perform regular maintenance. Only caveat I've found is that it's easier to pull the water pump">raw water pump than to attempt to swap the impeller in place.

[Fishman_Tx]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

Boats are like the English language. There's an exception to every rule........i2f

That's why I like the idea of 2 engines. Redundancy. Trouble? Shut one down. When the weather breaks, THEN make repairs. There's a way around every issue, if one is prepared. Shortcuts don't get you across the water, they put you under it.

And I still want engines "out" and saildrives. Repairs should be a once in a while thing. If your making repairs every time you go out, you need to seriously reconsider your maintenance habits. It's called PM (the keyword is "preventative"). Or repower the thing.......

[Fishman_Tx]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Sorry for the delay in responding:

1. SMJ I am shocked that any type of diesel would pose a greater risk of fire!!!! Still makes no ssnse to me, but hey!

2. As to the performance of a Solaris, it depends upon what model you are considering. SMJ has a 36 which is VERY similar to a Manta (both pulled from designs by Eric Lerouge) and which performs quite well indeed. It has the same under-bridgedeck shape (compound curves) which really do tend to reduce slamming. The principal difference is with respect to interior finish - the Solaris, while extremely solidly built (to Lloyds 100 A1 unlimited offshore standards), nevertheless made use of a great deal of glued on carpeting/vinyl which will need replacing by now.

My boat (the Sunstream 40) was modified from the Cherokee 35 which was designed by Rod Macalpine-Downie (another boat which SMJ owned in the past, if I am not mistaken). Macalpine-Downey also designed the Tornado cat in the late 60's and some say that there have been virtually no improvements in hull design for performance daysailing cats since this seminal design.

Many of the same design elements are present in the Cherokee/Sunstream 40 - fine entry with small knuckles forward, u-shaped underbody with a minimal prismatic coefficient. Having said all of that, the performance of my boat is modest in absolute terms. Yes, she tacks readily even in light air. Yes, she performs well in reaching conditions. However her performance to windward leaves much to be desired (anything closer than about 50 degrees true causes a substantial drop in speed and, due to the relatively low bridgedeck, the risk of pounding).

Part of the problem with the Sunstream 40 was that when the boat was lengthened aft, the rig was also moved aft to permit a cutter rig - hardly ideal on the wind. However for a cruising boat, I have found that it is an ideal rig and I am prepared to lose some performance to windward for its other advantages:
1. the mast is mounted at the aft coachouse bulkhead, the strongest point of the boat and a location which permits all of the lines to be led directly to the cockpit without the need for turning blocks, etc.
2. the furling staysail works perfectly in heavy air and permits a heavier sail that can be reefed and used as a proper storm jib. This is a safety issue as it does not require going forward to install a galerider, or equivalent over the furled genoa. It also moves the storm sails inboard, where it should be and ensures proper sail shape when reefed down (reefing a genoa by about 85% ruins the shape and, since lighter weight dacron is used, leads to blown out sails).
3. Since there are separate tracks/winches for the staysail/storm jib, one can ensure proper lead angles.

The 32 was also pulled from an Eric Lerouge design (again, like the Manta) and perfroms extremely well.

The other Solaris Cats, including the original 36 and the 42, while extremely well built and comodious, tend to perform rather poorly and to suffer from extensive pounding.

Anyway, those are my comments on performance of Solaris cats. Others may differ.

Cheers!

Brad

Brad, the one we have here is an 80's model Sunstar 36, I think. There's a '92 in Galveston going for 128k if it hasn't sold. Won't even consider it if performance is crap tho..

[smj]

I don't believe Solaris built the Sunstar in the 80's, must have been Sunrise. Totally different boat. If you reread Brad's post I think it's obvious he thinks the Sunstar is a good performer. I would have to agree with him but then I'm partial to the Sunstar.