Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-01-2017, 11:18   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 188
Catamaran capsize preparation

I've read quite a few threads recently relating to catamaran capsize, and as I am now seriously looking to purchase one (a Lagoon 380), I'm curious how far planning for a capsize should go, and what people would do in the event.

Not the least of my thoughts is that we are a cruising family with two young boys (10 and 7 when we leave) and would need them to know what to do.

So, a few thoughts:

Conditions
Don't be out in bad conditions in the first place. We certainly don't intend to, but our plans include at least one ocean crossing.

Exiting the boat
Staying inside the boat in a dry, protected area seems the nicest way to sit out and await a rescue. Being neck high in water, disorientated, and in the dark sounds hellish - I can't imagine how hard it would be stay calm and inside in those conditions.

Opening the escape hatches is the obvious way out, but will compromise some of the flotation of the hulls. The escape hatches are also the only easy way to check if everyone is out. Is it realistic to exit and then close the hatch to preserve buoyancy? (I know some boats have sealed hatches that must be broken).

Jackstays under bridgedeck
Do people fit these normally? Would certainly be glad of them in the event.

Liferaft
Many people have commented on the poor location of the liferaft slot for an inverted, stern heavy, cat. Any clever ways to deal with this? Outremer have the liferaft fitted in a corner of the port trampoline, which seems a decent solution.

Assuming you get the liferaft out, would you then try and lash it between the hulls so you have the stable boat but also some weather protection?

EPIRB
With an epirb on a hydrostatic release, is there an optimum place to fit when considering a capsize? Would intend to also carry a PLB on lifejacket.

Drills
We practise MOB on our current boat. Not sure if there's a simple way to drill for capsize?

Thanks.
terah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2017, 12:46   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 867
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Gday Terah

Good idea in acknowledging the risk of capsize. You could start by reading Chris White's book on Multihull Seamanship. It has a good section on it.

In the old days a capsized crew had to wait for weeks or maybe months before rescuce. John Glennie and crew lasted over 100 days on the Rose Noelle trimaran. (He had an old non satellite epirb that didn't work.) Trirmarans are much better than cats at providing a safe living area for the crew after capsize.

Production cats like the Lagoon are going to float very low in the water so they will not offer much protection at all after a capsize. The Lagoon layout I can find has two toilets which will cause an inverted cat to float very low after capsize. The toilets will vent out any trapped air so the boat will only be kept afloat by other air spaces. So don't rely on living on the upturned boat.

Placing the liferaft along the back beam somewhere - a la - Catana - is probably a better idea than the front net. Get a big dinghy that you can use too and you could fit it with a cover. I like the idea of non skid under the bridgedeck and lines underneath. The lines will be mostly used to tether yourself in floating bean bags out of the sun under the bridgedeck - (my wife and I like the cool and the shade on a hot day)

I don't think you can get a Lagoon to be a satisfactory mothership. In the Chris White capsizes some of the crew elected to stay outside even though the Atlantic is one of the very few cat designs with a proper capsize pod. (The Atlantics float much higher than the Lagoon will).

Missing Sunsail yacht found after a year - Yachting Monthly

(This is not your design but probably floats at about the same level upside down)

This was never a problem in the tri capsizes in the 70s and 80s. Getting back in the cat through the low escape hatch is probably daunting. Before escape hatches tri sailors cut through the bottom of the main hull with axes.

So you will almost certainly be getting into the liferaft. Put some lines on the brdgedeck bottom (and get some bean bags to float underneath on) get an extra EPIRB, work out the calamity pack, ensure the liferaft is big enough and look at getting a really nice inflatable to take with you. Attach the calamity beags so they can be above the inverted waterline and get the kids to learn what to do. We had fun practicing fire and man overboard drills when we lived aboard with our two kids. There were great at it.

I have never heard of anyone tethering a liferaft to a fixed object. Looking at the Anna capsize footage of the dinghy getting jerked around I don't think it would be a very good way to live for long.



Congratulations on accepting that the Lagoon can capsize and thinking about it.

Phil
catsketcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2017, 12:46   #3
Registered User
 
leftbrainstuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Diego CA
Boat: Liberty 458
Posts: 2,205
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Liferafts in boxes mounted externally are a poor choice for sailing vessels. They work well on large passenger vessels that dont have the same potential to capsize and have martial points with easy access.

Same applies to epirbs, ditch bags, etc.

When I see liferafts mounted forward of the mast I shudder. They're placed there because they are out of the way. Probably the first thing to be torn off in big wind and seas. And good luck getting to it way forward.

Place the emergency gear where the humans are. This would logically be near the main doors or hatch and within easy reach of the cockpit.

Having tested these systems on naval vessels the logical solution is obvious. You need to prove these systems in real world conditions.

Try accessing and deploying them while blindfolded which simulates DDD conditions. Dark, drowsy and dangerous.
leftbrainstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2017, 13:27   #4
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,559
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

I've always though the best prevention tool is to have spent several years sailing beach cats in strong conditions. This develops a keen sense of how to manage the boat and what it can do. Some will say they are not related; they don't know what they are talking about. In strong conditions the rules are the rules.

I have never heard of a sailor with significant beach cat experience getting in trouble unless racing comparatively. If you are serious about seamanship, IMHO, that is what you will do. Everything else is patches.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2017, 15:14   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On the boat
Boat: LAGOON 400
Posts: 2,347
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

re lagoon capsize:

i have lagoon and have done some thinking re capsize. katsketcher is correct that lagoon will sit very low due to all the holes.

However all these holes can be and should be closed before weather gets dangerous. Including tube to front and back crash compatement.

Mine are water tight as I have tested them.

Also, get rid of most of water in water tanks, This will provide extra 500 kg of uplifting force.

After you do that, boat will sit depending on how much is loaded. One would hope that one of the best naval architects will design boat to be floating high enough until total weight less than 15T.

So, that is how i will approach.
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2017, 16:23   #6
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,400
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

terah,

Good on you for thinking about the issues, man.

Jacklines, for under the bridge deck, for sure. Relatively cheap, and could save your bacon.

Liferaft should be made accessible both from the water, and from the cockpit. I'm sure a way can be figured out. One of the issues to anticipate is that in the event of fire, the boat may be upright, but you still need to abandon, therefore it needs to be available from above as well as below.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2017, 18:08   #7
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boat - Greece - Me - Michigan
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 3,489
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Quote:
Originally Posted by terah View Post

Conditions
Don't be out in bad conditions in the first place. We certainly don't intend to, but our plans include at least one ocean crossing.
I think you actually need this experience to know that you won't capsize, So I'd suggest going out in conditions that make you nervous several times. See how you feel when your back in port.

Exiting the boat
Staying inside the boat in a dry, protected area seems the nicest way to sit out and await a rescue. Being neck high in water, disorientated, and in the dark sounds hellish - I can't imagine how hard it would be stay calm and inside in those conditions.

Opening the escape hatches is the obvious way out, but will compromise some of the flotation of the hulls. The escape hatches are also the only easy way to check if everyone is out. Is it realistic to exit and then close the hatch to preserve buoyancy? No way (I know some boats have sealed hatches that must be broken).

It's unlikely that I would stay inside in conditions that caused a cat to capsize. How you you know that the boat has lost it's positive bouyancy and isn't 30' down? Fine to do after a period of time where you know the boat isn't going to sink.

Jackstays under bridgedeck
Do people fit these normally? Would certainly be glad of them in the event.

Very few do. I don't but the chances of Palarran going over are not high

Liferaft
Many people have commented on the poor location of the liferaft slot for an inverted, stern heavy, cat. Any clever ways to deal with this? Outremer have the liferaft fitted in a corner of the port trampoline, which seems a decent solution.

The odds of needing your life raft is like 5% for inversion, 30% for fire, 40% for massive hull breach, and the balance for unknown. I'd place it where it will make sense for what are the actual dangers.

Assuming you get the liferaft out, would you then try and lash it between the hulls so you have the stable boat but also some weather protection?

EPIRB
With an epirb on a hydrostatic release, is there an optimum place to fit when considering a capsize? Would intend to also carry a PLB on lifejacket.

Drills
We practise MOB on our current boat. Not sure if there's a simple way to drill for capsize?

Thanks.
My favorite saying is "Chance favors the prepared mind" so thinking about capsize is worthwhile. But only after you have fully played out the loss of the rig, fire, flooding, collision, etc. Why everyone dwells on this one single issue with catamarans is crazy.
__________________
Our course is set for an uncharted sea
Dante
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2017, 06:24   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,983
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Healthy conversation you guys are having, especially liked the saying, chance favors the prepared mind.
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2017, 15:01   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 188
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

@catsketcher Thanks for the book recommendation - have ordered a copy. My gut feel is that you're right, sitting in the liferaft is going to be better than being washed around a slightly sumberged bridgedeck, but again that relies on managing to get the liferaft out.

The idea of tethering is that I'd expect the inverted cat to be more stable than the liferaft, but the liferaft to have more weather protection. I guess that's all going to depend on the conditions at the time but can see how tethering might not work.

@leftbrainstuff I like the blindfolded idea. Going to give that a shot.

@thinwater Would love to, but my beach cat experience is limited to occasional play on a Hobie 16

@arsenelupiga That's a very good point. Shutting seacocks should be on the 'heavy weather' checklist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
One of the issues to anticipate is that in the event of fire, the boat may be upright, but you still need to abandon, therefore it needs to be available from above as well as below.
That's what I like about the Outremer solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
When I see liferafts mounted forward of the mast I shudder. They're placed there because they are out of the way. Probably the first thing to be torn off in big wind and seas. And good luck getting to it way forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
The odds of needing your life raft is like 5% for inversion, 30% for fire, 40% for massive hull breach, and the balance for unknown. I'd place it where it will make sense for what are the actual dangers.
And that's what I don't like about it.

To me, an ideal solution would be one that keeps the raft in that slot on stern, but allows for release when the stern is submerged. Not sure how that could work though.

"Chance favors the prepared mind" - I recall the more colloquial version "Prior planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance"
terah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2017, 15:24   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,983
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Give some good thought to where your raft is located, it's important. Mono hull sailors make similar errors in judgment. Cheeky Refiki lost her keel and turned turtle. The raft was below the helmsman's seat and it was not possible to release it from underwater. All 5 sailors lost their lives even though the boat is probably still floating. Sometimes it's not possible to cover all your bases but I've certainly seen lots of very poorly thought out aft locations over the years.
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2017, 16:19   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Scotland
Posts: 188
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Yeah, I've just finished reading Tony Bullimore's "Saved". He made several attempts to cut the lashings on his liferaft before realising its buoyancy was pinning it to the inverted cockpit floor.

On my current boat (mono) I keep the raft in a cradle on the outside of the pushpit. Turning turtle it would still be tricky to get at it.
terah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2017, 20:16   #12
Registered User
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
Images: 69
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

I believe our boat would float pretty high inverted, with the bridgedeck maybe 2 feet out of the water. We have a compartment under our aft cabin bed, around queen bed size, with access to the hoses from one of our water tanks.


This would be our shelter while we waited for rescue.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2017, 01:01   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On the boat
Boat: LAGOON 400
Posts: 2,347
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I believe our boat would float pretty high inverted, with the bridgedeck maybe 2 feet out of the water. We have a compartment under our aft cabin bed, around queen bed size, with access to the hoses from one of our water tanks.


This would be our shelter while we waited for rescue.
how will you get fresh air ? 1m3 or so , trapped air which may be polluted, will not last that long.
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2017, 02:20   #14
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation


What are the odds of flipping a Lagoon over? I imagine that a couple may have done so, but don’t know for certain. So this would be the first thing that I’d look into. Since there’s little use in spending tens of thousands of dollars solving a non-problem. If we were talking about a more performance oriented boat then I’d say that yes, making some efforts to prepare for this makes sense. But not so much for designs that have never flipped, despite hundreds of them being out there circling the globe.


You might connect with such organizations as US Sailing, or those who conduct Safety at Sea seminars for realistic numbers as relate to the odds of capsizing. As well as their recommendations for dealing with same. Ditto on you & the family attending a Safety at Sea seminar, & participating in some water survival training. www.USSailing.org

That said, there are some things that you can do to make your boat safer regardless. Which, your solutions to problems like this depend greatly on the boat, especially in terms of how she'll float when inverted. Meaning that some boats will have little that actually projects above the surface of the water if they're upside down. With some having their transoms deeply immersed, & others floating quite high.

My impression is that many of the heavier production cats won't do well when holed or inverted, regarding how they float. And that many one-offs & racing oriented designs will be towards the other end of the spectrum. So that if your boat is of the sort that's likely to have 90% of the interior flooded when it’s upside down, then you'd want to prepare with an eye towards living elsewhere until help arrives, while still being tethered to her. With the mothership acting as something of a breakwater for the raft/dinghy, so that it's not subjected to the full force of the seas. And with the possibility that you might be able to access some stores & equipment from the inverted cat from time to time. Things like food, water, medical supplies, & warm clothes, etc.

For the liferaft solution, putting it on the back of the aft crossbeam seems an attractive option. Which, it's fairly easy to build a watertight box to house a valise, where the box is openable from both it's top & bottom. And you can easily build one that opens both via the usual hands on methods, as well as via remote releases.
To include fitting the locker with stout lanyards that serve to open quick release shackles, or to pull quick release locking pins. Much like remotely tripping the a spinnaker guy shackle when it’s out at the end of a spinnaker pole. Or for that matter, the (remote) release mechanisms built into the jaws of most spinnaker poles.

Thus with such a locker the raft would commonly be protected from the weather, & accessible whether you're upright, or inverted. With the perk that the raft won't need to live on deck, out in the weather 24/7. But rather to only be stowed topsides for passages. And the other perk to this is that it's relatively easily to regularly inspect a raft in a soft valise as compared to the difficulty in doing so with one in a hard factory canister. Ditto on the ease of inspecting or modifying the contents of the emergency gear that's stowed with/inside of the raft. Such as flares, & other ditch kit type items.

But even this isn’t an ideal solution in that a fair percentage of fires happen in or near engine compartments, which in a lot of instances would be in close proximity to the raft if it’s stowed like this. As well as the obvious, that the raft might be a few feet underwater if the boat flips. Though if the above idea is well executed, it shouldn’t be too difficult to release the raft if you’re inverted. Also, be sure to build in several safety precautions to such a locker to prevent it’s accidental opening.


EDIT: On your liferaft, plan to have several heavily reinforced tether points added around the raft's circumference. As it's fairly common for the OEM ones to pull out, sometimes to include holing a tube when they do. And you don't want the raft escaping without everyone onboard, nor seperating from the mothership without permission.

PS: So are you going to paint the underside of the bridgedeck neon pink, or just stick with "traditional" luminescent lime green?
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2017, 03:58   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Boat: secondarily boatless
Posts: 184
Re: Catamaran capsize preparation

Hi Terah,

we've been out on the oceans for three years with a Lagoon 470. The most important thing in my opinion is to prevent capsizing in the first place. And if you read the available info capsizing happens when you surf down a wave and bury your bows in the wave ahead - called pitchpoling.

To prevent that to the best degree possible you should have a drogue, and you should put some very sturdy fixing points for it on the back of the cockpit.

...and dream on about never being out in bad weather. Unless you want to be a coast hugger, you will encounter situations where you will just have to ride it out - and I have to say that each such occurrence increased our faith in the abilities of our boat and our level of seamanship.

Oliver
Oliver L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
capsize, catamaran, size

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EPIRB Proves Its Worth in Sudden Capsize of Catamaran foolishsailor Health, Safety & Related Gear 27 12-08-2012 00:13
Preparation for Antifouling Paint landonshaw Construction, Maintenance & Refit 3 29-11-2010 14:03
Preparation for working on 12V High Amp circuits j-yelroc Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 21 22-09-2008 17:32
Storm Preparation GordMay Seamanship & Boat Handling 38 14-05-2007 13:41
Offshore Preparation ... GordMay Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 03-10-2005 20:09

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.