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Old 11-07-2019, 17:46   #31
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Skippies View Post
That begs the question:
Dagger boards up in big seas?
The reason i ask is that one doesnt want resistance to a wave hitting from the side and risking capsize. Or is my logic wrong?
Being only 14 feet wide, Leeside board down in steep waves is not good for me,
Beam on to the waves the Leeside board digs in and prevents sliding down the waves,
Its gets very scary when your at 70 degrees beam on, till I got it pointing down the waves again, I wont do that again, Learning process,

I use the Windward board half down in all seas to make the Autopilots work easier and it travels in a straight line,,

Both boards up, The Auto pilot works very hard and is continually grinding hard,
The boat is weaving all over the place,

Other cats may behave differently, I can only speak for mine,
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Old 11-07-2019, 17:49   #32
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Meanwhile 1-2 m waves and 30 kt of winds shouldn't suffice to turn over any cat even under full sail, unless for very light boat with a huge sail plan.
You may certainly break something but the boat shouldn't go upside down.
Rogue wave and or microburst should be the only answer.
You might have noted that the nearest weather station (on land and several nautical miles due W) recorded a 37 knot gust at about the time of the incident with AFN174N. See: How many cats have flipped ?

I would expect the gusts offshore to be more likely to be higher than that recorded by the land-based weather station.

From the video of the capsized craft, it's difficult to tell exactly how much sail was hoist.
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Old 11-07-2019, 18:03   #33
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
You might have noted that the nearest weather station (on land and several nautical miles due W) recorded a 37 knot gust at about the time of the incident with AFN174N. See: How many cats have flipped ?

I would expect the gusts offshore to be more likely to be higher than that recorded by the land-based weather station.

From the video of the capsized craft, it's difficult to tell exactly how much sail was hoist.
From memory, the anemometer at Knobby's Head station is quite high... on an instrument tower which sits upon a high and steep bluff. To me, this means more gusty conditions than out at sea, not less. None the less, the adage that " gusts may be 40% stronger than the averages listed here" helps explain that reading.


I don't think microbursts are a factor in this case, for the general wx conditions were not from thunderstorms but rather just gradient winds. There was a frontal passage around midnight the night before, but no features shown on the msls during the day.

I do hope that after the dust settles a bit the survivors can help us understand what happened.

Jim
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Old 11-07-2019, 18:12   #34
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

I experienced a 60 kt gust from the SW in the same area 30 years ago the winds had been 40 kts till then. The boat was Defiance an S and S 30 and was knocked flat putting the mast in the water. Full main and no jib, not possible to reef at the time, just hang on to the tiller and steer. My wife who was below in a pilot berth was thrown across the boat and landed in the galley, it happened 3 times. We got drunk the next day at Shoal Bay pub after pumping the boat out. I like monos for that reason.
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Old 11-07-2019, 18:16   #35
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

i am near Newcastle , it was very windy , 30-35 knots maybe stronger gusts . Sad .
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Old 11-07-2019, 18:40   #36
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

What point of sail might the boat have been on ?
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Old 11-07-2019, 21:40   #37
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
From memory, the anemometer at Knobby's Head station is quite high... on an instrument tower which sits upon a high and steep bluff. To me, this means more gusty conditions than out at sea, not less. None the less, the adage that " gusts may be 40% stronger than the averages listed here" helps explain that reading.


I don't think microbursts are a factor in this case, for the general wx conditions were not from thunderstorms but rather just gradient winds. There was a frontal passage around midnight the night before, but no features shown on the msls during the day.

I do hope that after the dust settles a bit the survivors can help us understand what happened.

Jim
Newcastle airport recorded gusts to 38kts. I'd imagine there could be stronger gusts out at sea.
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Old 11-07-2019, 21:50   #38
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

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Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
In the photograph accessed by the link in the first post, both boards are sticking up after flipping. Given the discussion above, I'm wondering under what conditions one would have had both boards down?

Still feeling sad about this event. Condolences to all involved.

Ann
As I said before, different people have different approaches. Myself, I wouldn't have both boards fully down in anything over about 15 kts of wind, even sailing close hauled. It's just not needed.

In 20-30 kts only half of one board or less.
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Old 18-07-2019, 07:34   #39
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Obv firstly condolences to those involved ,,, strong winds forecast and generally attributed to the capsize , people talk of auto jammers , I ask , why are both dagger boards down in those conditions , tho the seas do not look very big in the photo / vids ( maybe sometime later )
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Old Yesterday, 01:33   #40
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Agreed almost all the time about not needing much board in high winds.
However, if they were comfortably running with a suitable sail area and lost someone over the side and had to sail hard on the wind, pinching under too much sail, to get back to them, then both boards down would help. This may have been why 2 of the crew were found away from the boat.

There appears to be a number of things not on this boat that suggest the designer, builder and owner never considered the possibility it would capsize.

All speculation, hopefully we will get the full story at some stage.

It is relatively simple to fit a float based trigger which releases the sheet at a predermined angle of heel or pitch. And equally easy to have it release a predetermined length of sheet regardless of whether the sheet is around a winch, a cleat or the crew's ankle.
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Old Yesterday, 04:49   #41
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

I would have thot that use of engines to beat back against head wind / seas would be more realistic than trying to sail
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Old Yesterday, 08:34   #42
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

My sincere condolences to the sailors and their families.
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Old Yesterday, 10:11   #43
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

Condolences to all families and friends involved. The sea is a moody and dangerous place. Safety precautions and systems should always be in place at all times. Situations change from pleasant to deadly very quickly...
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Old Yesterday, 11:45   #44
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

I, personally, would NEVER say this on Cruisers Forum. However, an unknown source suggested that, unlike a mono hull, when a catamaran goes over, it stays over. Of course, I wouldn't believe this rumor.
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Old Yesterday, 14:02   #45
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Re: Catamaran Capsize.

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Originally Posted by conchaway View Post
I, personally, would NEVER say this on Cruisers Forum. However, an unknown source suggested that, unlike a mono hull, when a catamaran goes over, it stays over. Of course, I wouldn't believe this rumor.
Good idea, it's a false rumour. But the catamaran does stay afloat, so it's unlike a monohull in that way.
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