Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

[C-man77]

At a quick glance at the numbers there is not much in it.

The Freeflow is a little lighter with a little less sail area which is good.

They are as different as day and night as for interior! and I love the hardtop and the sheltered helm station.

I don't think they would be in the same price range though as an older Outremer

how long have they been around? would there be any on the used market?

C-man

Really Nice boat!

[tripletrouble]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Outremers definitely....and FreeFlows, which are specifically designed with the aft mast wishbone rig for that reason.

Out of interest, run the comparison between the Outremer 45 and FreeFlow 46.

You may be surprised

Great information. Extremely useful in making singular and boat to boat comparisons.

Is there a source to explain some of the ratings such as BdCl, KSP, SSpd and KSI?

[C-man77]

Originally Posted by tripletrouble

Great information. Extremely useful in making singular and boat to boat comparisons.

Is there a source to explain some of the ratings such as BdCl, KSP, SSpd and KSI?

just keep reading they explain lots of things, google is your friend too

[BigBeakie]

C-Man

Yep they are amazingly close is specs, and the Outremer 45 is a helluva boat! The interior of the FF46 was unfinished in the photos.

What surprised me, aside from the big difference in bridgedeck clearance, was the Lwl/Bh ratio of 12 for the FreeFlow and 9 for Outremer. I had heard that the Outremer goes really well in good winds, but drops off in light winds. That Lwl/Bh would indicate perhaps why. It surprised me that the Bruce Number was higher for the FreeFlow as well, although marginally. I know I was staggered when sailing the FreeFlow at how it maintained speed when the wind dropped to 6 to 8 knots. It was unreal, and it had full cruising load and 9 people onboard. So when Nathan Stanton says the hulls are "slippery", he's not kidding.
No , there are none available used. They are going into production next year.

TripleTrouble, the terms are explained in a glossary on the site. I must admit I printed them out instead of searching for them all the time.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by C-man77

Only problem with the 40 foot plus boats is I want to sail most of the time just the wife and I accept for any crossings where I would get a good crewman for help.
wondering how big I can go and still handle it, the wife is not much for crewing
A damm good auto pilot would be a must.

The combined weight of the Admiral and I is about 250 pounds (114 kg) and we do just fine double handing. We do take at least one extra person on long passages. We have just one electric winch for handling the mainsail (hoisting and reefing) and everything gets done in the cockpit (except for hoisting light air headsails). Auto pilots are standard and essential on all shorthanded cruising cats.

So double handing a large cat is very common and safe with a good set up, and once off the hook and sails up, most cruising boats are "no handed" except for a proper lookout. But if the "wife is not much for crewing" she needs to be because you might get hurt or fall overboard and then what?

Dave

[C-man77]

BB

The numbers suggest the Freeflow is even better than the Outremer, new tech. vs older tech I guess?

The MASSIVE interiour space looks to be because of the increased beam width and a bit and more cabin fore and aft

this increased beam would also bring up the Bruce number no doubt.

I see the Keshi must be the first one taking 2 years to build, is that the one you sailed on?

It is listed for sale as 2012 with about 300hrs on the motors,

how much $$$ is required?

C-man

I pretty much like everything about that boat except I see something hanging under the bridge deck that looks a little sus

I have seen videos of older Outremers sailing really well in light winds,

according to the site you gave me he says: Catanas sail fast but drop off in light winds but not because of Lwl/bh but because of the depth of the hulls.

I would imagine that is where the difference is with the Freefow
the hulls must be shallow and they also have mini keels + daggerboards something I need to study.





Length
at the

waterline

(Lwl)
,

hull beam

(Bh)

and beam at hull centerlines

(Bcl)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by C-man77

For sure a Main that can be reefed without too much struggle


I do not want a big powerful rig,

I want easily driven hulls that perform well with less rig

Outremer's are one that I know of in this category

Pity Bob Oram has retired. His boats fit that wish list perfectly.

[C-man77]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Pity Bob Oram has retired. His boats fit that wish list perfectly.

I am looking to buy second hand......

[C-man77]

OPPS! my mistake

Lwl/bh is length at the waterline x beam width of each hull (not overall beam)

with a number of 12 that clearly is in the racer catagory, yet they do not look so slim?

too sail well in light airs they must be both slim and shallow? or have a very powerful rig which they do not.

The overall beam BOA is about 1m more on the freeflow and that is a lot!

that, as I said would give it a better Bruce #

multiply that extra 1m in width (BOA) times the length of the cabin and that is a lot of extra square meters of living space

I am curious as to how the wishbone on the main works? and what is that parasidic drag hanging under the bridge deck?

too late now, the wife has see the inside! I was purposely hiding lagoons type interiors from her.

guess I need to save up more $$$$$$$$ now

[C-man77]

BB

I find this interesting from your website;

The gents at Catana sent actual hull beam figures for several of their
boats and they were generally smaller than calculated by a few percent. It is apparent that
their designer, the late Lock Crowther, has used a hull shape that is rounded, but deeper
and narrower than a semicircular
cross-section, i.e., they have a slightly lower Bh than calculated.
That is a good design trade to slim the hulls but retain displacement, but at the
sacrifice of some additional wetted surface...a trade that sacrifices low speed (light wind) performance for high
speed performance.
The slimmer hulls will also have a lower water-plane area, so they will immerse more with added weight.
Other designers tend to flatten
the shape toward the stern to achieve a planing hull, so their Bh may be wider than calculated.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by C-man77

OPPS! my mistake

Lwl/bh is length at the waterline x beam width of each hull (not overall beam)

with a number of 12 that clearly is in the racer catagory, yet they do not look so slim?

too sail well in light airs they must be both slim and shallow? or have a very powerful rig which they do not.

The overall beam BOA is about 1m more on the freeflow and that is a lot!

that, as I said would give it a better Bruce #

multiply that extra 1m in width (BOA) times the length of the cabin and that is a lot of extra square meters of living space

I am curious as to how the wishbone on the main works? and what is that parasidic drag hanging under the bridge deck?

too late now, the wife has see the inside! I was purposely hiding lagoons type interiors from her.

guess I need to save up more $$$$$$$$ now

Pay no attention to the very unfinished layout of Keshi. The 6x4 meter saloon offers the possibility of a similar layout to the St Francis 50 on steriods.

[C-man77]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

The combined weight of the Admiral and I is about 250 pounds (114 kg) and we do just fine double handing. We do take at least one extra person on long passages. We have just one electric winch for handling the mainsail (hoisting and reefing) and everything gets done in the cockpit (except for hoisting light air headsails). Auto pilots are standard and essential on all shorthanded cruising cats.

So double handing a large cat is very common and safe with a good set up, and once off the hook and sails up, most cruising boats are "no handed" except for a proper lookout. But if the "wife is not much for crewing" she needs to be because you might get hurt or fall overboard and then what?

Dave

good point,
wife will have to learn how to stop the boat, luff the sails and to even douse the main. operate the motors at least in an emergency. she is already a good look-out and can take the wheel. I am a believer in the old fashioned knot generators that drag behind the boat and produce a little power under way, good thing about them if someone fell overboard at least they have a rope to grab.

I like electric wenches if they have a manual back up

[Mr B]

A lot smaller than what you want, But I bought a Gemini MC 105, from Fiji and sailed it back to Bundaberg on my lonesome, And no, Im not a sailor, I am a motor boat man,


Its only 34 foot long, but its only 14 feet wide as well, so I can get into a Marina as a mono, I can drop the main in high winds by pointing it into the wind and it just falls down, Its Very easy to sail on my own,,


I bought it to sail to the Kimberlys in, and also to live in Melbourne on it, 0 Celcius so it had to be totally enclosed, which is totally removable with zips,
I pull 600 mm draught, with centre boards,
You will need a watermaker across the north of OZ as there is no water unless you have large tanks onboard, Or its the wet season and a tarp to catch it,
I have full solar and 400 amp hrs of Battery, so I never run out of power, So every thing runs for free, nav lights, electronics, microwave, pumps,Etc etc,

The only thing this boat didnt have was an electric winch for the anchor, But I like the exercise, Its easy to pull up,

I pull up just off the beach, Go to shore in the dinghy, Shopping on the beach front supermarkets,, get diesel, from servo's, Back in the dinghy and I am gone again,
I dont use Marina's, I just use the pick,

[C-man77]

Big Breakie

here is the latest skuttlebutt straight from the builders mouth, I spent an hour on the phone with him and he explained all his secrets to the success of the freeflow 46

firstly he is the guy behind what was "lightwave" he started them in his garage back in the day.

What makes his hulls so slippery he explained is all about what they do with the water once they part it Anyone can cut through the water with a fine bow, but it is all about how to release it without parasitic drag. They start to work on this from the exact middle of the hulls and it continues to the stern.

1. they have moved the mast to the exact center of the boat where it belongs (most cats have it forward for accom. reasons this places the weight and power in the center

2. The V beam you see under the bridge deck is there to strengthen the mast support that is braced to it (like the old stepped to the keel on mono's)

3. The hulls are so high because the motors and tanks are all under the floor, again weighted in the center, with long 2m shafts to the props aft. ALL weight is in the real exact center of this boat.

4. the eliptical hulls are deeper and the mini keels are for beaching protection to the shaft and rudders and the daggers are, well you know pointing. he say she sail fast upwind and they have had her beating in 30-35 knots no worries.

He said when they first used a different prop they took off like a rocket even on idle so the had to change them to slow her down.

bad news is they are shut down and moving to east coast USA
he would not give me a price, but when I asked if it was under the Mil he said that was the plan.

much more that my head is still processing and I did take notes too!

C-man

[BigBeakie]

C-Man,

Not sure what you mean by "parasidic drag hanging under bridgedeck" ?

Do you mean the nacelle? The nacelle works in conjunction with the low wave making bow hull shapes to give progressive buoyancy when in surfing conditions downwind. Works really, really well. Smooth ride, no pitching or hobby horsing. Cuts big short chop but doesn't bury the bows in big stuff.

As I said before, hull design is a fine art & Lock Crowther understood that perhaps better than anyone. See his Spindrift hulls, hint hint. Nathan has improved on those> that's called progress.

For light air performance, it's all about putting the water back together, which big fat rounded sterns don't do.