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Old 17-08-2015, 00:46   #61
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

C-Man,

Ahh ha, we must have sent posts at same time. Glad you could catch up with Nathan.

It's not bad news the production is moving to the US, it's very, very good news!
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Old 17-08-2015, 00:58   #62
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Amazing and innovative design work happening in the Cat world. NOT as some would suggest to make them 'safe', rather to improve and tweak performance AND safety and bring out the best in the design. Good to see companies investing in their ideas and building fabulous boats. Exciting times.

I like the new MastFoil(tm) patent pending sailing rig by Chris White Designs High Performance Seaworthy Sailing Yachts

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Old 17-08-2015, 02:50   #63
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
C-Man,

Ahh ha, we must have sent posts at same time. Glad you could catch up with Nathan.

It's not bad news the production is moving to the US, it's very, very good news!
yes I think we did post at the same time, and yes the V-beam was mainly about support for the mast step, but also works as you said.

he is also looking into an all electric system with electric motors with that hull

exciting times for multihulls! just wish it had all happened 5+ years ago so there would be used ones to be had

C-man
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Old 17-08-2015, 03:29   #64
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Amazing and innovative design work happening in the Cat world. NOT as some would suggest to make them 'safe', rather to improve and tweak performance AND safety and bring out the best in the design. Good to see companies investing in their ideas and building fabulous boats. Exciting times.

I like the new MastFoil(tm) patent pending sailing rig by Chris White Designs High Performance Seaworthy Sailing Yachts

I don't quite understand them, but mains have not changed for a long time, we need something better and if Chris White is behind this it should be good.

I don't fancy reefing the big standard main as much fun especially downwind

In a perfect world we would just sail downwind with big soft light air sails.

C-man
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Old 17-08-2015, 04:29   #65
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

We love our Lagoon 440, had it 6 years.
Easy to get parts for.
Performance v's liveability its all compromise.
We would rather be comfortable as you spend more time at anchor than you do traveling.
In saying that we have had plenty of 200 mile days.



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Old 17-08-2015, 15:21   #66
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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I am looking to buy second hand......

There was a second-hand Oram 50 for sale recently, but it may be sold now.
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Old 18-08-2015, 18:09   #67
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Amazing and innovative design work happening in the Cat world. NOT as some would suggest to make them 'safe', rather to improve and tweak performance AND safety and bring out the best in the design. Good to see companies investing in their ideas and building fabulous boats. Exciting times.

I like the new MastFoil(tm) patent pending sailing rig by Chris White Designs High Performance Seaworthy Sailing Yachts

I like this idea for handeling the big main, give it a moment to get past the mono and explain the system


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Old 19-08-2015, 03:33   #68
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

I know Nathan reasonably well, good man and a good designer and sailor, so I am not having a go at him, but
Quote:
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firstly he is the guy behind what was "lightwave" he started them in his garage back in the day.
He was one of two, the other chap, Roger Overall is still running Lightwave. And they (the Lightwaves) are a Grainger design.

Quote:
1. they have moved the mast to the exact center of the boat where it belongs (most cats have it forward for accom. reasons this places the weight and power in the center
What matters isn't where the mast is, what matters is where the centre of effort is. I am sure Nathan knows this and has designed the sail plan accordingly.

Quote:
3. The hulls are so high because the motors and tanks are all under the floor, again weighted in the center, with long 2m shafts to the props aft. ALL weight is in the real exact center of this boat.
Sensible placement of engines in a cruising boat, but everything has a cost, in this case it is significant freeboard

Again don't get me wrong, Nathan is a good designer, he builds a great boat and it works very very well and anyone in the that area of the market would do well to consider them, certainly I would place the FF designs well in front of the current crop of floating apartment blocks from the volume charter boat manufacturers.
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Old 19-08-2015, 03:40   #69
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

What matters isn't where the mast is, what matters is where the centre of effort is. I am sure Nathan knows this and has designed the sail plan accordingly.


could you please explain this to me, what is the difference between the center of effort and the mast location?

thanks

C-man
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Old 19-08-2015, 05:12   #70
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

C-man

Ok since no response from others who would be MUCH more qualified than I to address your question, I'll jump in & try.

The designers goal is, or should be, to deliver a boat that sails as effortlessly as possible, eg with the least amount of weather or lee helm. When it does, the autopilot does not work as hard to keep the boat on course, and the sails are working efficiently, assuming they are trimmed properly. The parameters are where the mast is positioned, the centre of effort of the mainsail and the fore sail(s), and the the centre of lateral resistance of the hull.
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Old 19-08-2015, 16:08   #71
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Thanks BB

seems like the center of effort is the main load point of each sail and the distance between them is the center of effort for the boat, so that would put it close to or just forward of the mast if counting the jib depending on rig, either way it is still pretty much the mast location as well.

whatever boat we get, and we are thinking after Christmas when our house sells hopefully.

I figure I need about 6 months of study to choose the right cat, but I am learning pretty fast!

I want one of these so MY center of effort will be capable of handling the big mainsail

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Old 19-08-2015, 16:39   #72
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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Originally Posted by C-man77 View Post
seems like the center of effort is the main load point of each sail and the distance between them is the center of effort for the boat, so that would put it close to or just forward of the mast if counting the jib depending on rig, either way it is still pretty much the mast location as well.
Not exactly. The center of effort of the rig is the centroid of the sum of the centers of effort of all the sails along the major axis of the vessel at any given time. This location may be forward or aft of the mast. The mast has little to do with it, other than it has it's own "sail area". The center of resistance of the hull is much less variable (unless you have boards) and is the centroid of the lateral resistance to leeway of the hull below the water. When the center of effort of the rig is at the same point fore and aft as the center of lateral resistance of the hull, the boat is "balanced" and there will be no lee helm or weather helm. If the center of effort of the rig is forward of the center of lateral resistance of the hull, the boat will tend to want to fall off the wind, and to keep it from doing this, helm needs to be added and you have lee helm - you need to steer to windward. If the opposite is present - the center of effort of the rig is aft of the center of lateral resistance, the boat tends to "round up" and you have to add lee helm to keep a straight course - you have to steer to leeward. This is weather helm. By positioning the rudder(s) one way or the other, you are actually changing the center of lateral resistance slightly fore or aft. Because the center of effort is far more easily adjusted than the center of lateral resistance - by changing the sail plan - this is how sailors balance their boats >> by either reefing or changing sails to move the centroid fore or aft. Even sheeting a sail in or out will move the centroid. Most skilled sailors prefer a little weather helm so they can "feel" the change in balance via the helm and react to puffs, lulls, headers, and footers to most efficiently sail the boat. Cruisers like to achieve a near balanced helm to limit the work (and power consumption) of the auto pilot.

Dave
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Old 19-08-2015, 17:53   #73
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Great summary Dave

C-man

"I want one of these so MY center of effort will be capable of handling the big mainsail"

Or you could consider getting a boat with a proportionately smaller mainsail in the first place?

Also consider a boat set up for shorthanded sailing. Most boats need 5 lines to set and trim fore and main sail, whereas for instance the FreeFlow with the aft mast wishbone rig and self tacking foresail ( which is powerful because of the aft mast by the way) only has 2 lines to handle the sails. That is about as easy as it gets, yet the sailing performance is not compromised. We ( actually the Admiral ) liked that alot, and factored into our decision to go for the FreeFlow.
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Old 19-08-2015, 18:00   #74
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

4th type:
Somewhere in between, daggerboard cat, sails really well, easy to tack (self tacking) and comfortable, but not luxurious. Can beat to weather when needed and sail itsself off a lee shore. Average speed for passages always seems to be 6 knots (including anchoring and lolling about in light winds), but we can do 12+ if conditions are right, with an all time record of 27 knots (which we hope never to repeat). More importantly, she still moves in 5 knots of wind. Easy to single hand and a joy to doublehand. Reefing all done inside. Helm station is protected from wind & waves - we threw away our foul weather gear! When people enter our salon, their first words are always "wow" since it's so roomy. Adventures at Sea


or Maine Cat 41 - Maine Cat Catamarans
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Old 19-08-2015, 19:15   #75
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Dave-

thanks for your reply, very informative
I had an old 26' seabird yawl that would love to sail to weather by it's self once the sails were set I could just let go of the tiller, one time I was crossing from Santa Barbara to the Channel Islands and I fell asleep, suddenly my sixth sense (or angels) woke me up and without even looking I dove on the tiller and put her hard over!
then I looked up to find myself counting rivets on a big freighter as I had sailed into the shipping lanes which is normal to cross but better done while awake!

BB

Yes, that center located mast would provide for a bigger front triangle for sure. I have been talking with Nathen's partner Rob (really great guy) about the possibility of a FF 44' or 46' but with less finish at a cheaper price and there will be a kit. We both think this hull is a good candidate for electric motors sense the first time they motored it was doing 8knots at Idle and it scared the hell out of everyone so they had to de-tune the props. The roller reefing system was his Idea. I like the boat a lot! just have to wait and see how much we get for our house $$$$$$$$

Tabby-

yes I like the MC 41 too, it is another boat on my radar
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