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Old 13-08-2015, 14:45   #16
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Re: Cay vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Yes cman. It's probably best to try get on board and do some sailing on the various types. The houseomarans aren't necessarily built without sailing in mind, but the priority is usually over interior volume rather than speed. I've raced yachts my whole life and often wonder about people's preference for speed in cruising yachts. Sure fast is nice, but I get just as big a kick out of racing optimists as hobie 18s. It's not about the speed, it's about getting the best out of the particular yacht and is really only interesting if you are competing in similar classed boats. Any large cruising cat races are pretty limited in supply, so it's unlikely you would be doing much racing anyway. Cruising in the med or Caribbean it's pretty rare to see another yacht of any type on the same course to race against and the difference between a fast boat and a slow one might be an hour to the next anchorage.
Don't get me wrong, I like to go fast as much as the next guy, but really the boat speed is just a number...8kn , 15kn, it doesn't really change the feeling or enjoyment of the sailing or the experience of cruising. The open 40 does look interesting and maybe worthwhile looking into. There's one for charter in the bvis I think.
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Old 13-08-2015, 14:57   #17
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Re: Cay vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Hi you all,

We have a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 and must say that she perforforms very well. Today we sailed 20nm in 3 hours in 5-6 m/s wind with appaerant wind of 60degrees. The boat had full water and diesel tanks as well as all our live aboard stuff. Must say that I have upgraded the standard cross cut sails to triradial, which will help all cats of this type to improve the sailing capability.

She can easily sail to windward @80 degrees tacking, but must admit that tacking close to the wind is not the best,but at least is quite comfy if you don't push to high.

Lucky has space to store your stuff, but not in excess as said earlier weigth is a cats worst enemy.

I would not shy away from wht many refer to as "charter cathouses" but consider weigth and sail setupto get a good performance, which oviously will not beat the light weight daggerboard cats, as long as they are kept close to empty inside!

Good luck on your chase for the right cat for you.

Happy lead free sailing from Lucky
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Old 13-08-2015, 15:08   #18
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

C-man,.....just so many options out there. I faced a similar dilemma around 12 years ago because all the Mag articles reckon a 40 footer was the best for cruising, performance, carrying capacity, safety in the open ocean an comfort. So, I bit the bullet saved my pennies and took the family, includes the present Admiral and the four young kids (8 to 17) up to the Whitsundays and hired, because of budget, an Elite 11 (36 footer) bridgedeck Cat. To my 'astonishment' it was bigger than I thought and comfortable with all the family on board, sailed along ok and had the security of two inboard diesels. Knowing and experiencing this and always wanting to build a boat decided to build a Schionning Wildernss 1100 in 2003 that was launched in October 2013. This size Catamaran is absolutely perfect for the two of us and the occasional visitor who usually only can stay for a couple of days.
What I am really getting at is keep your mind open about all choices because the boat you fall in love with may not be what you thought you wanted.
Regarding watermakers,... On our shakedown cruise to the Whitsundays last year we were restricted on how long we could stay away from Marinas or anchorages where nearby the local council had 'freerange' freshwater taps. Filling 20 litre water contains, transporting out to the boat, pouring them into the tanks and doing it all over again isn't fun! So, researched watermakers and decided to installation 240volt Echotec 70 ltr per hour unit that runs off my Honda EU2i inverter generator. Can also charge batteries when making water, usually got three hours every seven days and using only around 3-4 litres of fuel. After each cycle, all you do is a freshwater flush (about a bucket) that cleans the system until next use in seven days or so. Now the only reason we come into Marinas is because the beer runs out,....and the Admiral's scotch,....and diesel of course (you know 20 litres of diesel only weighs around 0.72 of 20 Ltrs water,.. But that's another blog)
Happy hunting and hope to see you out there someday.
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Old 13-08-2015, 15:47   #19
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Re: Cay vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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Originally Posted by sailsw00 View Post
If I were you I would look at the daggerboard cats: they are usually faster and can point better.
As for a watermaker, I have found no use for one if one is sailing in the North Atlantic and Caribbean only. There are so many places to get good water, and so many ways a watermaker can screw up, and they require constant maintenance. I delivered a boat to the Pacific many years ago, and the owner figured that including "all" costs (purchase price, installation, diesel to run the genset to power the watermaker, filters, time spent to operate it, purge it, replace filters, buy and install replacement parts, etc.), the water they made in two years of cruising cost about as much as cheap champagne, maybe $40/gallon. Is it worth it to you not go go ashore once every two weeks or so and buy water for $.10/gallon?
If you have any doubts, get a watermaker after a year or two aboard.
-Steve
Wow! Completely different from my experience! we've made around 40 litres per day for the past 5 years, and we can usually run the watermaker off the solar panels.
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Old 13-08-2015, 16:16   #20
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

HI C MAN
If you like lots of light and visibility you might consider a Main Cat build in Bremen, Maine. The are quality construction and been around since 1996, so there are a few used ones. We bought a MC 30 2 1/2 years ago and are now buying a MC 41 for the Bahamas. You can bareboat charter then there through Maine Cat Charters. They have a truly open bridge deck for absolute max visibility and openness. All the lines winches, and helm are together in an open setting with a table with several benches. So the guests are all part of the action. Search for Maine Cat and check them out.
Best of luck
Clubfooted Jib
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Old 13-08-2015, 16:48   #21
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Re: Cay vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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Originally Posted by BambooSailor View Post
I think better classification of cats is: pick two of these three main attributes: price, performance, comfort. And no, I do not think that load carrying capability is something for charter boats only. Load any narrow hulls performance cat with provisions, spare parts, cruising equipment, etc. and you will get cat that sails much worse than what you call 'charter cat'. True, charters do not care much about sailing, but that does not mean that charter cats cannot sail. And for light winds you can always add light-wind sail, which are rarely found on charter cats.
Sorry, but this is is simply not true. We carry everything we need or want on our "narrow hulled" (12.5:1) boat, but we can still sail rings around most of the "built for charter" boats.
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Old 13-08-2015, 18:06   #22
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Re: Cay vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Sorry, but this is is simply not true. We carry everything we need or want on our "narrow hulled" (12.5:1) boat, but we can still sail rings around most of the "built for charter" boats.
Well of COURSE you can since you're really motoring 110% of the time.
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Old 13-08-2015, 21:31   #23
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Thanks for all the replies, what a great bunch we have here!
you have given me lots to digest!

When I say I want performance, I am not JUST talking about speed, but also how the boat rides, points, and handles the sea in both a blow as well as (my favorite) pleasant sailing in Light airs

I had an old 35' Gulfweed Gaff rigged Ketch that would stand up well under full sail in a stiff breeze with a lot of whitecaps but surprised me how well it ghosted along in very little light airs!

I think it should sail first and foremost and be able to sail it's self out of any situations

I looked at the open 40 and I like the layout and the hardtop, but looks like not enough bridge deck clearance worries me.

I like the Catanas a lot, they have the bridge deck clearance in spades! and there are plenty of used ones around. I am just having trouble getting past the helm stations, I would prefer a sheltered one in the scorching tropical sun, but then I would have to have a auto steering device on any boat I buy.

I remember on my half cabin powerboat in the Whitsundays before I built the hardtop we would be almost dead from the sun after only short 20-30min Island hops even with hats and thin white cotton shirts! once I had the hardtop everything was sweet!

When I say comfort, well we are pretty minimalistic and can travel light so weight is not much of a problem.
The wife likes open floor space for her pilates exercises, finding floor space like 6'x4' is not that common. I was thinking of a removable inside saloon table that should convert to a big bunk or similar in the cockpit. A big cockpit bunk would be a great asset in the tropics.

I like the Outreamer 45, I like the long forward hulls
then theres the old B.O.A.T bring out another thousand that might happen.

I will look at some Schionnings I believe they are kits by the designer so they would be subject to build quality

Granger? there are some in Thailand

Just curious why there aren't more Carbon hulls in the 36-45' range?

seems all the boats have their pluses and minuses

Cheers!

C-man
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Old 14-08-2015, 01:16   #24
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

A big problem you are going to run into is there are not 3 distinct categories. It is a spectrum. Even the comfiest condomarans will outperform most cruising monohulls of similar size. Sporty boats can still be comfortable up to a point but at some point sportiness comes with big dollar prices or sacrificing comfort.


Also keep in mind most cruisers spend better than 90% of their time at anchor or dock. Reasonable sea keeping ability is needed and speed are good but be careful sacrificing too much comfort for an absolute speed demon.
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Old 14-08-2015, 05:44   #25
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-man77 View Post
I like the Catanas a lot, they have the bridge deck clearance in spades! and there are plenty of used ones around. I am just having trouble getting past the helm stations, I would prefer a sheltered one in the scorching tropical sun, but then I would have to have a auto steering device on any boat I buy.
A common reaction for many people - until they try one. I recommend you charter a range of cats to confirm or refute your expectations.

Dave
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Old 14-08-2015, 06:14   #26
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Agreed,

I need to go out on more boats to compare
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Old 14-08-2015, 07:23   #27
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Where do you draw yourline between a performance cat and a condomaranish cat?
is it up to 8 knots its a charter or condocat, and 9-13 performance or what? I know several nice cats that cruise at 7-8 knots that with a bowsprit and a screecher and the right conditions can top at 11 to 12, I also know some Seawinds that can top out at 18+ knots that average 6 knots cruising, and some Catanas that are overloaded and average the same as well.
Alot to consider when thinking of expectations. I can tell you that our friends Voyage 45 with a sprit and screecher Far out pointed our old leopard 38 by a good 20+ degrees both have LAR keels.
I can tell you our Athena 38 sails good, hits in the low teens in the right conditions, averages 7knots, has a crap load of cruising and living gear on her and performs fantastic at anchor, but no better and no worse than our other cats. the real difference is in so many of the little intricacies that make up what you really like or dislike about a boat. The transoms and steps, ladder set up, galley, cockpit arrangement, is there a walk across, galley, salon set up, even berth configuration is important, davit set up , anchor and windlass set up, sailing controls, visibility forward, etc etc performance is important, but many sail less than they lay at anchor, a good mix of what you really find important is the goal!
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Old 14-08-2015, 13:55   #28
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Well, it's nice to have a bunch of money to plop down on a catamaran, but you really have to think about what a large boat is going to cost to cruise and maintain. Tom really wanted a Leopard 46. We bought a Leopard 40. It soon became very clear to us that the cost of maintaining the 46 would have been much more than the 40. For example, it costs more to grab a slip in a marina when needed and get hauled. The entry and exit costs in foreign ports is also more. We paid $300 in the Bahamas compared to $600 for a 46.


The other thing to consider is storage space. Some cats, such as a Privilege 44 have great storage for provisions. Others, such as our Leopard, do not. One of the first things we did was take the forward starboard cabin and make a pantry. Now, the L 40 does come in an owner's version, which gives you a lot of space for your bed and bathroom. It also has more hanging lock space etc., but one woman who had two kids on board with an owner's version said she wished they would have gotten the 4 cabin version and build a pantry. All her food storage is under the settee in the salon.
Another thing you might want to consider is just re-outfitting the boat and making it yours. It's not cheap, and if you've spent all your available funds on the boat itself, you won't have anything left over.




Would I like another few feet? Yes, but do I want to cost? No. Our boat is fast, and sails well. She is a 2005 and I was willing to go as old as a 2000. Whatever you end up buying, just make sure she fits most of your needs as a cruiser.
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Old 14-08-2015, 19:12   #29
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

[QUOTE=Dulcesuenos;1890458]Where do you draw yourline between a performance cat and a condomaranish cat?


I draw the line not on just speed,

The boat absolutely must sail well in light airs, most heavy condo's don't

also on bridge deck clearance and no hard surfaces forward of the mast except anchor set-up and cross beam, hull windage, and some aft hull overhangs.

condomarans seem to encroach too much forward and aft to enlarge the living spaces
some it seems even encroach upwards and downwards resulting in either too much windage or too low bridge deck clearence
when they really should not IMO

seems to me a proper sailing catamaran should only be allowed a certain amount of cabin per size hulls to be in harmony with the sea..... and if that is not enough then one needs to choose another size up. again this is just MY opinion

I really only wanted a 38' boat to make it easier to handle and afford the upkeep, I haven't seen enough yet, just been reading so when I do inspect I have a better idea of what I am looking for and I don't want to waste sellers time looking at the wrong boats

All the input I am getting here is very helpful and I try to keep an open mind
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Old 14-08-2015, 20:24   #30
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Re: Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy?

Hi C-man

We've been living aboard our Admiral 38 catamaran for the past nine years. Having sailed across the Atlantic and for the past 5 years between the Bahamas and Maine we've had fantastic experiences. There will never be the perfect boat, I wished ours was larger when surfing down 30 ft waves in the south Atlantic and smaller when we haul out to paint and wax the boat. Regardless of the size it's the experience and journey which will leave you with memories to cherish. We are working at putting together a course to assist "new bee's" in entering the cruising lifestyle please feel free to contact us if you feel this is something which you may be interested in, thanks.

Cheers,

Rick and Katie
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