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Old 12-02-2013, 06:28   #31
smj
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Originally Posted by monte View Post
interesting view cd, however I would tend to disagree. Depending on the destination, wind speed and direction, at the end of the day it doesn't make too much difference on performance. Not many people sail if the wind is under 5 knots if they have a destination over 30 miles away and they want to arrive before sundown. Depending on wind direction we can make 5-6 knots in 10 knots of breeze on a Lagoon380. I guess a higher performance cat might make 6-7 in the same breeze so over a 30 mile sail they would arrive 45 minutes earlier at the destination. Not really a good reason to sacrifice comfort for performance.
Quite often we set a course for a destination 60M or more away and when we arrive we wish we could have sailed for longer (suns shining, fish are biting, sailing is good or whatever)
Occasionally we sail with friends and arrive an hour or two ahead or behind, it really doesn't make a lot of difference. However if you are on a schedule to be somewhere at a set time or day, you will have to motor at times, regardless of boat performance. The best bet is to not have a set itinerary and enjoy sailing at whatever speed you can, when you can. I dont agree with people that say you motor more than you would have thought on a cat, I think the same people would motor regardless of the vessel.
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I guess it depends on the boat. I would think a descent performing cat would make 4 kts in a 5 kt wind and 7-8 kts in a 10 kt breeze. A true performance boat would do better. Lets face it, the better performing cat will reach the destination quicker, not always a good thing. But the better performing cat will motor less and sail more, especially in light winds. That's what I'm looking for. Nothing wrong with the choice of a boat whose performance isn't stellar as that is your choice. Just as there's nothing wrong with sacrificing a little comfort to get a boat that will perform in light conditions.
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:48   #32
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

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You might want to adjust your schedule to spend more time in Fort Lauderdale. The major cat brokers are there and you can easily see dozens Of boats. It is the center of the cat universe. The west coast of Fla, not so much.
Thanks, Sand Crab

We have already set aside time after the Miami Boat Show to spend in the area, so this will happen.
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Old 12-02-2013, 07:31   #33
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

Hello again, thanks for the great replies!

For the past few days we have been suffering the consequences of cuddling with a very cute, but snotty-nosed grandkid at the end of January.

We missed meeting with several folks who had contacted us as well. Dang!

We are now recovered, and in Key West, and attempting to set up a short charter on a Lagoon 42 that we were pointed to - thanks Ryan K!

Funny how life is - we were having a slice of Key Lime Pie and coffee on Duval Street yesterday, when we happened to speak with some folks who were sitting at a table next to us. They turned out to be long-time cruisers on a 48' ketch based on Vancouver Island! We had a fun time talking to them.

Just to add to the Lagoon discussion:

First, understand that we are LANDLUBBERS, just about no experience at all.

I (Steve) am a big fellow - 6'2" 220 pounds of lard, while Lizzy is 5'6" 105 pounds of almost nothing. Think Beauty and the Beast. Many of the yachts we have been on seem to be designed to remind me that I am big. Why this is so, beats me. (We found the same thing in aircraft - there is no way that we would buy a Mooney, even though there are many big people who manage to squeeze themselves into them, just for the performance, which is great.)

The Lagoons just seem to "fit" better. I can stand up in most parts of the Lagoons, and feel very comfortable in the important, often-used areas. Not so much in some of the other cats we visited.

Now, maybe the newer boats are doing everything better/different, but our problem is that we are not planning on buying a new boat - doesn't fit our budget, the depreciation loss does not match our philosophy, and most important, it would seem that many folks with new boats spend as much time ironing out the wrinkles as do those who buy used. So our thinking is - why would anyone in our position buy new?

Our thinking about sailing is, safety first, then comfort, then everything else. Certainly, there seems to be an element of safety in speed, and low-wind performance, but how much? How much of that safety lost to comfort can be "bought back" with decent motors and decent diesel capacity? We certainly do not intend to be sailing with time deadlines.

Even if we suddenly turn into Mr and Mrs. Slocumb, we will never be a high-latitudes Knox-Johnston couple. And even if we do turn into circumnavigators, we will likely still spend long periods at anchor/mooring. My Beauty said: " I want a flat boat, and I want to sail in warm waters". I would not dare to disagree. If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!

We have enjoyed the discussion so far.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:01   #34
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

The percentage of time spent motoring vs. sailing has so many variables, it's really foolish to try and debate. Since most cruisers spend 90+% of their time at anchor or mooring, sacrificing comfort for performance to get that extra 1-2kts of speed in light winds will be paid for far too many times.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that waiting for the perfect weather will allow for more sailing than motoring. But the sacrifices waiting for that perfect day also has a cost. Especially if one has a life outside of cruising.

I still work full time, I invite friends to cruise with us that buy airplane tickets, IOW, there are schedules to keep. I would estimate I motor 50% of the time.

I have no interest in trading my cruising cat for a lightweight racing cat. Yes, there are models in between, but for added cost and loss of creature comforts.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:40   #35
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The percentage of time spent motoring vs. sailing has so many variables, it's really foolish to try and debate. Since most cruisers spend 90+% of their time at anchor or mooring, sacrificing comfort for performance to get that extra 1-2kts of speed in light winds will be paid for far too many times.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that waiting for the perfect weather will allow for more sailing than motoring. But the sacrifices waiting for that perfect day also has a cost. Especially if one has a life outside of cruising.

I still work full time, I invite friends to cruise with us that buy airplane tickets, IOW, there are schedules to keep. I would estimate I motor 50% of the time.

I have no interest in trading my cruising cat for a lightweight racing cat. Yes, there are models in between, but for added cost and loss of creature comforts.
I understand what your saying. Everyone has their preferences of comfort or speed. I guess it's all relative. If you found another cat that had more living space yet was going to travel 2 knots slower would you be interested? Probably not as you've probably found the compromise that fits you. For me, I can give up some living space to get what I desire from a multi which is light air performance. If I found a boat that had less living space but gave me a couple of extra knots would I go for it? Heck yeah, but my wife probably wouldn't! Another compromise.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:05   #36
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

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I understand what your saying. Everyone has their preferences of comfort or speed. I guess it's all relative. If you found another cat that had more living space yet was going to travel 2 knots slower would you be interested? Probably not as you've probably found the compromise that fits you. For me, I can give up some living space to get what I desire from a multi which is light air performance. If I found a boat that had less living space but gave me a couple of extra knots would I go for it? Heck yeah, but my wife probably wouldn't! Another compromise.
It's not just space, number of berths, or heads. It's having a generator for AC and heat, a water maker and reasonable water storage, a good size refrigerator and separate freezer, a microwave, a washing machine and dryer, ice maker, solar panels, inverter, enough battery for 24 hours, biminis, WiFi, computers, TV, kayaks on the deck, outdoor grill, various other creature comforts, etc.

Of course, this all has to in balance with budget. This will fit on a 38' boat, but it will also fit on a 60' boat.

You make your choices, then live with it.

All of the above is called cruising. Racers don't normally talk about the same things.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:35   #37
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

I could pare what I said down to a few smaller comments. I'd like to have a boat with good light-wind performance. Just hate motoring when I could be sailing. Hanging at anchor having a beer with friends? LOVE IT. I like comfort too, but I find being under sail to be joyous. If I had to choose, I'd look for something with a bit more performance, just so I could enjoy sailing a few more days than just motoring or motor sailing.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:28   #38
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

To make my point another way.

Two catamarans of the same WLL and load carrying capacity, loaded identically, will have similar sailing performance with the biggest differentiators being the sail area and skills of the crew.
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Old 12-02-2013, 13:10   #39
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It's not just space, number of berths, or heads. It's having a generator for AC and heat, a water maker and reasonable water storage, a good size refrigerator and separate freezer, a microwave, a washing machine and dryer, ice maker, solar panels, inverter, enough battery for 24 hours, biminis, WiFi, computers, TV, kayaks on the deck, outdoor grill, various other creature comforts, etc.

Of course, this all has to in balance with budget. This will fit on a 38' boat, but it will also fit on a 60' boat.

You make your choices, then live with it.

All of the above is called cruising. Racers don't normally talk about the same things.
Sorry but I don't call that cruising I call that having a condo or home. One of the reasons I cruise is to get away from all the stuff people feel they have to have to survive. Obviously we don't ac generator or any of the other homey feel good things you find on shore, that's why we can own a boat that performs well. All a matter of priorities.
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:34   #40
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

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Sorry but I don't call that cruising I call that having a condo or home. One of the reasons I cruise is to get away from all the stuff people feel they have to have to survive. Obviously we don't ac generator or any of the other homey feel good things you find on shore, that's why we can own a boat that performs well. All a matter of priorities.
Could not fit all that stuff on a Seawind anyway. Your choice is different. I have spent a week on a Seawind 1000, a great little vessel but not one I would choose to live on long term, although possible.

Its a personal choice if one wants a genset and A/c and they may in fact spend more time cruising. Its surprising the large number of cruisers with gensets when they don't actually have a genset. (Honda 1-2KW)

Not everyones view of cruising is the same as yours.
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:59   #41
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
It's not just space, number of berths, or heads. It's having a generator for AC and heat, a water maker and reasonable water storage, a good size refrigerator and separate freezer, a microwave, a washing machine and dryer, ice maker, solar panels, inverter, enough battery for 24 hours, biminis, WiFi, computers, TV, kayaks on the deck, outdoor grill, various other creature comforts, etc.

Of course, this all has to in balance with budget. This will fit on a 38' boat, but it will also fit on a 60' boat.

You make your choices, then live with it.

All of the above is called cruising. Racers don't normally talk about the same things.


I think what you describe is what cruising is becoming, sort of a "modern" version of the old concept of cruising. You can't say one is cruising and the other is not, they are just different. Everything changes, nothing remains the same. What's great is that if you can't afford all the extras you don't have to, you can still cruise with just the basics like the previous generation.

When it comes to all the additional niceties my only requirement is that I be able to live without something for an extended period if I can't fix it myself. I hate being dependent on finding someone to fix something that I can not. That's a lesson I've learned well living here on land in Thailand.
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Old 12-02-2013, 17:47   #42
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Could not fit all that stuff on a Seawind anyway. Your choice is different. I have spent a week on a Seawind 1000, a great little vessel but not one I would choose to live on long term, although possible.

Its a personal choice if one wants a genset and A/c and they may in fact spend more time cruising. Its surprising the large number of cruisers with gensets when they don't actually have a genset. (Honda 1-2KW)

Not everyones view of cruising is the same as yours.
Geez DotDun that's what I've been saying all along. It's about personal choice and your priorities. Yes we do like the Seawind and your right it would definetly make a bad liveaboard at a marina. But on the hook fantastic! Great ventilation and a great boat if you don't load it down with all the crap that people think they have to have to be considered a cruiser!
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Old 12-02-2013, 19:25   #43
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

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Geez DotDun that's what I've been saying all along. It's about personal choice and your priorities. Yes we do like the Seawind and your right it would definetly make a bad liveaboard at a marina. But on the hook fantastic! Great ventilation and a great boat if you don't load it down with all the crap that people think they have to have to be considered a cruiser!
You got the wrong guy!
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Old 13-02-2013, 06:01   #44
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You got the wrong guy!
Your right, I apologize!
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Old 13-02-2013, 06:49   #45
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Re: Cat sailors in Florida available to set some newbies straight?

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To make my point another way.

Two catamarans of the same WLL and load carrying capacity, loaded identically, will have similar sailing performance with the biggest differentiators being the sail area and skills of the crew.
Very true, statement, Have friends with a nice 45' cat, they wanted more speed and they got it with a huge Skreecher.

Why some people worry so much about light wind performance on a cruiser jsut baffles me. I would rather have a boat that handles in 15-30+ well, than one that flys in 5 knots, and needs to reef at 15.
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