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Old 23-12-2010, 09:04   #76
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Ok, we're going round in circles here. FACT, no one here can say for sure that a cats basic design is either better or worse than a mono's from a safety point of view.

End Of.

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Hey Simon.... Here's an extermely sexy beast for you to look at....
Well I think it is..
Triton Yachts (Oriental, NC)&
WOW, aliens have landed!!! One thing I do like about cats is the outlandish designs that sometimes crop up. Shame it's the wrong side of the pond, i'd love to see it.
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Old 23-12-2010, 09:10   #77
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On a lighter note. Was Captain Kangaroo born on Kangaroo Island?
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Old 23-12-2010, 09:26   #78
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How many cargo ships have slammed into containers and to what effect? It would seem that since they all follow the same shipping routes more or less,the incidence would be higher than the average cruiser encounters. These things are a hazard to navigation and perhaps they should be fitted with a device that would cause them to sink within a reasonable length of time. If they caused enough damage to commercial shipping they would certainly do something about it but until it costs them money nothing will happen.
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Old 23-12-2010, 09:42   #79
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Another upside down cat

I think its very common for a cat to flip, I see them all of the time!!!!!!!!!
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Old 23-12-2010, 10:28   #80
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Simonmd, I think you have it right - there are just too many variables. In some situations, I would prefer a well designed and built monohull, in others a well designed and built multihull. In this particular case (because it did not sink in spite of a massive hole), I would give the nod to a multi.

The fact of the capsize here really doesn't surprise me. If I have the facts correct, he boat was travelling at speed and all of a sudden it collided on the leeward side with a shipping container. This immediately created a huge hole in the leeward hull of the vessel which, in conjunction with the forward motion of the boat, no doubt pushed a huge volume of water into the leeward hull at an alarming rate - likely flooding it in seconds. Surely this would have caused a rapid list to leeward and such an imbalance that the force of waves/wind on the windward side could now be sufficent to carry her further over to leeward, burying the leeward bow. Once this occurs, the force of the water (remember, the boat is still moving forward) on top of the leeward foredeck would depress it even further and, in conjunction with even moderate wind/waves, carry her right over. But at least she didn't sink.

Brad
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Old 23-12-2010, 11:13   #81
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I think its very common for a cat to flip, I see them all of the time!!!!!!!!!
Attachment 22189
LMAO!!!!

As for cargo ships hitting containers, ooo, i'd imagine they might get a scrape, or mabe even a small dent! 20 ton container against over 100,000tons of cargo ship made of thick steel? I doubt if they'd even notice they'd hit anything.
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Old 23-12-2010, 12:34   #82
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On the contrary, I think it could be very instructive. An example:
The alleged superior performance of multis in a big storm is often illustrated by the takeout from the 1994 "Queen's Birthday Storm" near New Zealand.

The unofficial report tracks all the vessels who called in maydays, which happens to be more monos than multis. A few of those monos sank or were abandoned and none of the multis were lost. On the surface, it sounds like a smoking gun against monos, no?

BUT, the report doesn't list the breakout of the number of multis and monos that went through the storm. We know (according to the report) that there were many monos that made it safely through the storm without calling a mayday and we also know anecdotally that there were many more monos than multis cruising those grounds at that time.

SO, for all we know, it could be that every multi called a mayday and than only a small percentage of monos did. We might, therefore, be tempted to conclude that what that report shows is that multis get into trouble in big storms in much higher frequency than do monos.
This would be the report you're referring to:

[PUP] Multihulls in the deep blue

Actually we do know that not every multi that was caught in the queen's birthday storm called a mayday. "Fallado" went through the same storm with no problem. The report also mentions a 39 foot cat that did not.

It's also apparent from the report that one of the 2 cats that did call a mayday was, by the time a rescue vessel arrived, actually not in any real danger, and the crew was undecided about whether they should leave the boat.

And that storm is not usually cited to allege that multihulls are safer. It is almost always cited to defend against the allegation that cats are unseaworthy.

More specifically it's constantly alleged that cats are more likely to capsize in a storm than mono's. The report tells us that isn't the case, with several mono's repeatedly rolling, while none of the cats did.
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Old 23-12-2010, 12:43   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
This would be the report you're referring to:

[PUP] Multihulls in the deep blue

Actually we do know that not every multi that was caught in the queen's birthday storm called a mayday. "Fallado" went through the same storm with no problem. The report also mentions a 39 foot cat that did not.

It's also apparent from the report that one of the 2 cats that did call a mayday was, by the time a rescue vessel arrived, actually not in any real danger, and the crew was undecided about whether they should leave the boat.

And that storm is not usually cited to allege that multihulls are safer. It is almost always cited to defend against the allegation that cats are unseaworthy.

More specifically it's constantly alleged that cats are more likely to capsize in a storm than mono's. The report tells us that isn't the case, with several mono's repeatedly rolling, while none of the cats did.
Thanks for pointing us to it. I invite anyone who's interested to read it and see for themselves.
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Old 23-12-2010, 17:11   #84
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These things are a hazard to navigation and perhaps they should be fitted with a device that would cause them to sink within a reasonable length of time. If they caused enough damage to commercial shipping they would certainly do something about it but until it costs them money nothing will happen.
OK, here's what the shipping industry has to say about floating shipping containers and their removal from shipping lanes:

http://uploads.containerownersassoci...Containers.pdf

Don't forget that these guys have a fairly vested interest!

They haven't mentioned how long insulated containers float for, but have dispelled the myth of "floating below the surface". They haven't however, disputed the fact that they may submerge for lengthy periods and bob up again due to the effect of ocean swells. This is the phenomenon that I reported in an earlier post.

Anecdotally, I have been told that old insulated containers aren't easily or profitably recycled as scrap metal and are frequently intentionally jetisoned from ships. This action is internationally illegal, so the culprits choose locations where detection is less likely. Asian waters?
So the likelihood of hitting a "floater" is influenced by the locations of these "dumping grounds" as well as the ocean currents that carry these metal icebergs.
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Old 23-12-2010, 17:28   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
This would be the report you're referring to:

[PUP] Multihulls in the deep blue
In the end, the crew did have to come off as the rudders and mainsail had been destroyed, quote from that article,
A week or so later, they were stunned to learn that the boat had been found upright and in surprisingly good shape! After settling a salvage claim with another yachtie, they eventually sailed her back to Oz where they began rebuilding the cruising kitty

Pretty impressive in seas that had a 4000ton RNZN warship rolling to 48degrees!

Here is another article by the Captain of the naval ship involved in the rescue- Queens Birthday Storm 1994 - HMNZS MONOWAI
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Old 23-12-2010, 17:53   #86
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I think its very common for a cat to flip, I see them all of the time!!!!!!!!!
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Can't see no shipping container. What made the cat flip?
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Old 23-12-2010, 19:22   #87
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Originally Posted by simonmd View Post
In the end, the crew did have to come off as the rudders and mainsail had been destroyed, quote from that article,
A week or so later, they were stunned to learn that the boat had been found upright and in surprisingly good shape! After settling a salvage claim with another yachtie, they eventually sailed her back to Oz where they began rebuilding the cruising kitty

Pretty impressive in seas that had a 4000ton RNZN warship rolling to 48degrees!

Here is another article by the Captain of the naval ship involved in the rescue- Queens Birthday Storm 1994 - HMNZS MONOWAI
Also interesting to note that ALL the boats, multi and mono alike, that were abandoned and NOT deliberately sunk, all of them eventually turned up somewhere, still floating. Some were in recoverable condition (Sofia and Ramtha), some were not (Destiny), but they continued to float. The only one for which data is not available is Quartermaster which disappeared with all on board.

That storm was a real eye-opener for those of us who were not quite ready to leave Opua during that apparent weather window!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Towlers Bay, NSW, Oz
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Old 23-12-2010, 19:37   #88
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Also interesting to note that ALL the boats, multi and mono alike, that were abandoned and NOT deliberately sunk, all of them eventually turned up somewhere, still floating. Some were in recoverable condition (Sofia and Ramtha), some were not (Destiny), but they continued to float. The only one for which data is not available is Quartermaster which disappeared with all on board.
"Data is not available" seems a strange turn of phrase regarding a boat that dissapeared during a storm.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that Quartermaster sank, sadly with the loss of 3 lives.

But the article also mentions that the mono's were suffering repeated knock-downs and being rolled and pitch poled repeatedly in some cases. All had been dismasted. So while the boats may have survived, it's questionable how survivable they might have been for their crews.
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Old 24-12-2010, 07:20   #89
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In the end, the crew did have to come off as the rudders and mainsail had been destroyed, quote from that article,
A week or so later, they were stunned to learn that the boat had been found upright and in surprisingly good shape! After settling a salvage claim with another yachtie, they eventually sailed her back to Oz where they began rebuilding the cruising kitty

Pretty impressive in seas that had a 4000ton RNZN warship rolling to 48degrees!

Here is another article by the Captain of the naval ship involved in the rescue- Queens Birthday Storm 1994 - HMNZS MONOWAI
Not necessarily, as this is a commonly reported phenomenon with monohulls too - crews abandon ship only to find the boat survives the storm just fine. Read the redux on the '79 Fastnet Race - those were all monos.
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Old 24-12-2010, 08:52   #90
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Not necessarily, as this is a commonly reported phenomenon with monohulls too - crews abandon ship only to find the boat survives the storm just fine. Read the redux on the '79 Fastnet Race - those were all monos.
In the 79 Fastnet there were 2 Prout catamarans that sailed through the fleet. When asked later about the conditions they said it was a little beastly out there.
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