Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Recently a fair number of cats have sunk.

Name three in each hemisphere,

The only cats that are unsinkable are very sportive ones

, This is dependant on your definition of sportive, but overall pretty much incorrect. EG Leopards are pretty much unsinkable, and without wishing to in any way offend any leopard owners, they would not necessarily be universally regarded as sportive. . the ones made whose building material is less dense than sea water. That is not the case with the vast majority of cruising cats.

Saying all this choosing a cat or a monohull based on this sort of criteria seems absurd to me

Yep, - its like people with Landcruisers and etc never leaving the Tarmac. all a bit pointless

even if I considered desirable that cats and monohulls alike have a waterproof bulkhead separating the rudder area from the rest of the boat.

absolutely agree, any sensible design should have forward crash bulkheads and aft seperate rudder compartments if the rudder is in board of the hull.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Some years ago on a transat race, huge 60ft racing trimarans, very beamy and with a huge stability, were capsized by big winds (Gusts over 70K). At least one of them without any sail on the mast, just by the force of the wind on the big mast.

And your point is? The similarity between a Gemini and an ORMA 60 is minscule, the similarity between a gemini and a orma 60 being raced is infinitesimally small.

[lindabarzini]

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Someone told me 2 months ago they were going to cruise the caribean with a gemini.
I told them there is a lot of open water down there, and the chances of being in a situation where the boat is no good would be high. They called me an idiot, and told me to bugger off. I hate to be this right.

This could have just as easily happened in the Chesapeake Bay. Taking on water is not necessarily a function of depth of water.

This is a pretty smug comment when it has been clearly demonstrated the issue was not related to conditions.

You sound like one of those overly-opinionated know-it-alls who claim to know what exactly is a "blue water" boat. I think it has been clearly demonstrated that its less the boat and more the knowledge and expertise of the sailors.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Not sinking is a psychological reassurance I feel for many folk.. same as life rafts...
Folk surviving for long on either is far from the norm..
Don't know why there's so much Hoo Haa about it all.. mono.. cat.. its dead.

The boat is dead yes, most likely. The crew, not such a certainty. Some cat's inverted can make a decent liferaft. Better IMO than the inflatable variety. And others won't.

With EPIRBS you'd hope not to need to survive on either long-term.

[boatman61]

True.. but EPIRB's it seems often do not do the job.. 2014 saw 5 boats and 17 people disappear within 3 days of the Azores.. okay none were cats and yes... some guys survived for 5mths allegedly when they capsized on the way to Chile and drifted (luckily) back to NZ..
But.. once again the exception..

[Paul J. Nolan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Anyway, this boat didn't capsize due to wind. One hull flooded due to some kind of breach. That can happen to just about any boat.

Good point.

Paul

[Nahbrown]

I registered today due to this thread after months of lurking so first of all, thanks for the wealth of knowledge that the CF members share freely.

Secondly I had been thinking that Geminis were the right size (and yes budget) for my wife and I to retire on for a year or two in the Caribbean. This thread has highlighted the differences in construction to a point that I wouldn't want to risk a breach or failed pass through on a boat that isnt built to be buoyant. Are the Gemini MC models built the same as the 3000s in this regard?

Again thank you to all who contribute their experience, knowledge and opinions on this forum.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Nahbrown

I registered today due to this thread after months of lurking so first of all, thanks for the wealth of knowledge that the CF members share freely.

Secondly I had been thinking that Geminis were the right size (and yes budget) for my wife and I to retire on for a year or two in the Caribbean. This thread has highlighted the differences in construction to a point that I wouldn't want to risk a breach or failed pass through on a boat that isnt built to be buoyant. Are the Gemini MC models built the same as the 3000s in this regard?

Again thank you to all who contribute their experience, knowledge and opinions on this forum.

Gemini's are not sold as unsinkable (as are 99% of bluewater monohulls).

They do have crash compartments but the designer/builder has stated they are intended to slow any sinking not make the boat unsinkable (aka: in this scenario there is a hull a float where a mono would be on the bottom).

Some owners have filled these with foam making it essentially unsinkable. There is debate if this is a good idea or not.

[Nahbrown]

Valhalla 360, I thought that a commom characteristic of Catamarans was thier inherent buoyancy. Obviously I was mistaken and all cats are not created as such.

Livability, stability and safety are the reasons I had focused on catamarans. Size and price led me to look at Geminis. I am still in the learning phase and cant buy for another 20 months anyway. So much more to learn...

[Sos]

I wouldn't be put off by whether or not it is unsinkable. Most boats aren't!.
If you like the Gemini and it suits your purpose then consider replacing all the through hulls and pipes etc. Lot cheaper than compromising on which boat.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ThomD

Doubtless people are too polite here. But lead mines do get bashed in the right circles. Bad things can happen with any boat. At least with lead mines they are less likely constitute a hazard to shipping.

Unfortunately most monohulls that are abandoned are not because they are sinking but because people are afraid they can capsize (many even before the boat has been rolled) or have a broken rudder or mast. Most of those boats don't sink and many are known to be washed ashore on distant shores.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

And your point is? The similarity between a Gemini and an ORMA 60 is minscule, the similarity between a gemini and a orma 60 being raced is infinitesimally small.

Yes you are right, a Orma 60 has a hugely bigger stability. The Orma 60 were not racing at that point, just trying to survive a big storm without any sails on the mast. Yes they have masts that have proportionally more area than a typical cruising multihull but even so not a big area.

Just pointing out that given the right wind (that has to be a huge one) the wind pressure on the mast alone can capsize a multihull. I know of cruising cats that had been capsized at anchor and certainly you have knowledge about that too.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes you are right, a Orma 60 has a hugely bigger stability. The Orma 60 were not racing at that point, just trying to survive a big storm without any sails on the mast. Yes they have masts that have proportionally more area than a typical cruising multihull but even so not a big area.

Just pointing out that given the right wind (that has to be a huge one) the wind pressure on the mast alone can capsize a multihull. I know of cruising cats that had been capsized at anchor and certainly you have knowledge about that too.

it is not mast. it is bridgedeck & hulls catching the wind.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes you are right, a Orma 60 has a hugely bigger stability. .

Relative to the area of the bare mast, and the boat's displacement, I don't think so.


Anyway, as usual all that is irrelevant. The boat under discussion capsized because a hull flooded, not due to wind.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by smj

Tony Smith said the Geminis were designed and built as coastal cruisers not bluewater boats, though this may have changed with the 105. The Gemini is a great boat, but for bluewater sailing there are many more cats that are much more suited.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

He did pursue and obtain the top EU standard for Ocean going pleasure boats. There were a couple of minor changes (door sill was raised a few inches for example).

Personally wouldn't want to do an ocean crossing in any 34' boat but assuming everything was checked out ahead of time, I wouldn't worry about the boat if I had to take a Gemini. You are likely to give out long before the boat does.