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Old 06-02-2016, 13:57   #121
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Maybe someone can add to the list off the top of my head of recent abandoning.

FP cat off Haiti a couple of years ago - abandoned due to engine failure, later sunk by the navy apparently

Leopard delivery cat - all lost at sea

Rebel heart mono - abandoned due to medical issues

Swan mono in last May Azores storm - abandoned m still floating around

Another mono in the same storm I think

L400 cat in the same storm, sunk by rescue vessel

The cat in this thread. Left floating

The French cat last week off Porto Rico. Left floating

The sunken bene last week off Guadeloupe - rudder failure, flooded

Sunken bene King island - flooded
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Old 06-02-2016, 14:04   #122
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Re: Cat capcized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No internet is the best source for that, surely I will have there much more information regarding that compared with the one you will get personally making rescues on a particular part of the globe.
Maybe, maybe not. In many cases of boats being lost, all you might see on the internet is that a boat is overdue.

Then later it might be missing.

In some cases you might hear nothing at all.
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Old 06-02-2016, 16:22   #123
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Back to the original subject of this thread. We just met up with YaRiKa (correct spelling) and got the full story. They were about a mile and a half from Kindred Spirit when the got the call that they were taking on water. By the time they got there the boat was listing 45 degrees and KS was attempting to get in their dinghy. They had a hard wooden dinghy with no flotation save a couple of noodles strapped on. Seas were 4 feet and very choppy. All of this was happening around midnight. KS'S crew reported by radio that the dinghy was sinking too. The cat turned turtle just a couple of minutes after the two crew made it to the dinghy. YaRiKa had to make two passes to get a line to the dinghy. By the time they got them to the boat the water in the dinghy was over the seats. When they finally got the lady aboard the dinghy was hanging by the line . They tried keep it afloat but after emptying it twice they cut it loose. It was the first crossing to the Bahamas for both boats. Neither KS crew member was injured in the incident. The lady crew member had apparently joined the captain for just the trip across and was planning to fly out next week. Quite a harrowing experience for a first crossing. I hope this doesn't put her off sailing.

This was a pretty close call for the KS crew. If YaRiKa had just been a little further away the dinghy might have sunk and then they would have been searching for two people in the water in 4 foot choppy seas at midnight. This could easily have had a tragic ending. As it is apparently the captain is a live aboard, with no land residence and no insurance. Virtually everything he owned was aboard the boat.
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Old 06-02-2016, 17:07   #124
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Sorry to hear but glad no one was injured.


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Old 06-02-2016, 18:17   #125
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Sorry to hear but glad no one was injured.

Yes, the most important thing, nobody was hurt.

Given the type of dinghy they had, you have to wonder if they might have been better off staying with the big boat?
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:19   #126
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Maybe someone can add to the list off the top of my head of recent abandoning.

FP cat off Haiti a couple of years ago - abandoned due to engine failure, later sunk by the navy apparently

Leopard delivery cat - all lost at sea

Rebel heart mono - abandoned due to medical issues

Swan mono in last May Azores storm - abandoned m still floating around

Another mono in the same storm I think

L400 cat in the same storm, sunk by rescue vessel

The cat in this thread. Left floating

The French cat last week off Porto Rico. Left floating

The sunken bene last week off Guadeloupe - rudder failure, flooded

Sunken bene King island - flooded
Monte, you know and I know that many monos are abandoned by the crew without the boat having any risk of imminent risk of sinking, just because they are too afraid that anything bad can happen. In fact that has becoming a problem.

To that list and regarding this winter you can add a First abandoned west of Azores with a broken rudder (not sinking) a cat, the one with that unfortunates little girl that end up sunk (after hitting a ship on the rescue attempt) and two race boats abandoned, one with a solo injured sailor other with structural problems. Both boats were recovered later.

Nobody is saying that a cat has not more chances to remain afloat than a monohull on critical situations. What I am saying, and it is confirmed by reality, is that there are more monohulls abandoned without the boat being in an imminent sinking situation (and many remain afloat for many time) than the ones that are abandoned because the boat is actually sinking.

Even if most of those situations are not recorded in video there are plenty videos with sailors being rescued from sailboats that are not at all in a sinking risk situation. Crews, for insurance purposes always declare that the boat is making water, but if you look at the pictures you will see that they sit on the water in a normal way.

Unfortunately sailing boats are abandoned because the engine does not work, because the rudder is broken, because the sails are in bad condition, because the mast is broken or because the crew is just to afraid to go on. The ones abandoned because they are really sinking or had sunk are just a minority.

Some of those videos:







These are just from rescues on the last years by the Portuguese air Force. I can only remember on the last years one rescue from a mono hull that had not actually sink but that was capsized because it had lost the keel, this one:

all others were not made from sinking boats.

These videos are from other recent rescues made from disabled boats but boats not in risk of sinking that were abandoned because they had damaged engines, damaged sails, broken masts or because crews thought there was a possibility the boat would capsize and that their lives were at risk.









These are just recent ones I can remember many boats abandoned due to broken masts, broken rudders. I remember two abandoned on an ARC with broken rudders and that made it safely on their own to America, I remember a Westsail, probably the one on the video, that after being abandoned was recovered from a beach, I remember a Island Packet abandoned and recovered later I remember a mini abandoned and recovered later and that is just what I remember and I have a bad memory
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:23   #127
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
...
This was a pretty close call for the KS crew. If YaRiKa had just been a little further away the dinghy might have sunk and then they would have been searching for two people in the water in 4 foot choppy seas at midnight. This could easily have had a tragic ending. As it is apparently the captain is a live aboard, with no land residence and no insurance. Virtually everything he owned was aboard the boat.
.
Glad to know they had survived but a strong point in what regards to carry a liferaft, even on a cat.

I believe that the common believe that all cats are unsinkable can have nasty results making believe that a liferaft is not needed. Even on a capsized boat the space on the interior of the partially flooded hulls is very limited and in what regards considering it as a liferaft the central part will be flooded and washed up by the waves making it untenable except for a short period due to cold and waves.

Even if some would believe that I am attacking cats, I believe that I am contributing for a more rational and safety approach in what regards safety and the need to carry a liferaft on a cat, (or in any other boat) that many cat owners see as unnecessary.

Look at how the central part stays practically at water level and washed by waves:


This accident that occurred last year (the cat was capsized by a collision with a whale) is a good example of what I am saying. The crew found that the more safe solution was not clinging to the capsized hulls but to take shelter on the dinghy....the dinghy capsized twice and they lost all provisions that they had managed to save.

If they had not an Epirb that allowed them to be saved in about 12 hours they would be in trouble. If this was on cold waters the cold water on two capsizes could have had drastic effects.

Bottom point, on ocean travel carry always an Epirb and an oceanic life-raft, the ones that are closed and are water ballasted, diminishing the risks of capsizing.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:34   #128
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pirate Re: Cat capcized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Maybe, maybe not. In many cases of boats being lost, all you might see on the internet is that a boat is overdue.

Then later it might be missing.

In some cases you might hear nothing at all.
Yup... 70ftr leaves the Caribe never to be seen again.. EPIRB goes off on a 37ftr on the same route and month.. never seen again..
Those 2 boats accounted for 10 people..
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:44   #129
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Re: Cat capcized in the gulf stream.

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Yup... 70ftr leaves the Caribe never to be seen again.. EPIRB goes off on a 37ftr on the same route and month.. never seen again..
Those 2 boats accounted for 10 people..
Very sad. There's also the Nina in the Tasman sea. A good friend of ours was sailing quite close, in the opposite direction. I think 5 people died.

But no video, no photos, nothing for Polux to post, so maybe they never happened?
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Old 07-02-2016, 06:05   #130
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pirate Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Actually I was just adding to Monte's list..
An abandonment is for the skipper to decide after evaluating 1st the ability of himself, then his crew, to function adequately in the conditions.. then the odds on the boat coping with the sea's.. and lastly.. the odds on the liferaft being a safer place... easy to desk jockey criticism.. and I've been guilty myself after a fashion.
But 'we' are not there..
Re the 37ftr... they found what they thought was wreckage from her which leads me to think she was hit by something seen to late to avoid but.. in enough time to hit the EPIRB.. after that..???
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Old 07-02-2016, 16:53   #131
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

I agree with Polux's post #127 about every boat carrying a liferaft on offshore passages. Even though English is'nt Polux's first language, even I get the gist of what he is trying to point out in his posts.

I really sit up and take notice when someone whom we all know has more sea miles under his keel (than many of us combined) makes a post with serious content. Phil/Boatman61 has probably sailed on more types and brands of boats than many of us ever will. For that fact alone I place a lot of merit in what he (says) posts on CF. I appreciate him being a 'straight shooter' and telling it like it is, regardless of the topic.

The next time he makes it to NYC or thereabouts on a delivery I'm inviting him to dinner on me

This incident with 'Kindred Spirit' could have been any one of us on any boat. Just glad they were 'buddy boating' and put their heads together when it had to happen. If the Owner of S/V 'Kindred Spirit' reads this contact me and I'll do what I can to assist you in the near future.
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Old 07-02-2016, 17:30   #132
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pirate Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Clamdigger View Post
I agree with Polux's post #127 about every boat carrying a liferaft on offshore passages. Even though English is'nt Polux's first language, even I get the gist of what he is trying to point out in his posts.

I really sit up and take notice when someone whom we all know has more sea miles under his keel (than many of us combined) makes a post with serious content. Phil/Boatman61 has probably sailed on more types and brands of boats than many of us ever will. For that fact alone I place a lot of merit in what he (says) posts on CF. I appreciate him being a 'straight shooter' and telling it like it is, regardless of the topic.

The next time he makes it to NYC or thereabouts on a delivery I'm inviting him to dinner on me

This incident with 'Kindred Spirit' could have been any one of us on any boat. Just glad they were 'buddy boating' and put their heads together when it had to happen. If the Owner of S/V 'Kindred Spirit' reads this contact me and I'll do what I can to assist you in the near future.
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Old 07-02-2016, 21:54   #133
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Maybe someone can add to the list off the top of my head of recent abandoning.

FP cat off Haiti a couple of years ago - abandoned due to engine failure, later sunk by the navy apparently

Leopard delivery cat - all lost at sea

Rebel heart mono - abandoned due to medical issues

Swan mono in last May Azores storm - abandoned m still floating around

Another mono in the same storm I think

L400 cat in the same storm, sunk by rescue vessel

The cat in this thread. Left floating

The French cat last week off Porto Rico. Left floating

The sunken bene last week off Guadeloupe - rudder failure, flooded

Sunken bene King island - flooded
Blue Pearl--rudder bearing had failed, had prior groundings, as well-mono

Cheeki Rafiki-keel fell off-mono

Alpha ? cat
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Old 07-02-2016, 22:53   #134
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

only crazy would not try and make liferaft from upturned cat.

Key word here is PREPARATION !

Have exact plan what if.

1. Actions you do before passage - ensure cat will float ! lessen weight, check watertightness engine to main area fills..
2. Actions when things get dangerous (batteries, thruhulls, positioning of crew, emptying part of water tanks, position hammocks, clothing, etc
3. Actions immediately after - driver (if one) makes to preset hull, engage air flow, ...

delivery crew by definition cannot be prepared in full. One need to know boat real well.

i am in process of thinking this thru you guys like it or not.

actually, upturned cat is where I see real good use for sea anchor.
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Old 07-02-2016, 23:27   #135
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

we have plenty evidence that upturned cat survives cyclones.

to elaborate further i am going to say something that will upset particular group of sailors:

upturned cat & preparation is the only way to survive cyclonic conditions in small craft.

naa monos cant take more than couple of rolls. mast breaks and water gets in and the end. examples polux lists are from bad weather that is not really bad. one that turned bad, no evidence, as pointed earlier.
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