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Old 05-02-2016, 16:12   #91
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Davy J View Post
Do your research and buy the boat that is right for you. If everyone avoided a particular vessel because of some unfortunate event, no one would go anywhere.

Seamanship and preparedness are more important than the vessel. People have crossed into the Bahamas on stand-up paddle boards.

I don't intend to cross the Atlantic. However, if I do, I saved enough on the purchase of my boat to send it over on Dockwise..........
I dont intend to cross oceans but the passages between Caribbean islands, or in this case florida to Bimini, obviously can be enough water to cause problems.

The owner stated on the yahoo Gemini message group that he suspects a failed thru hull was the culprit. As a newly purchased boat I assume a survey was done yet here is a part failure causing that side of the boat to sink which in turn resulted in ( with help of wind & waves) pulling the cat over.

Would a different model Camera with safer construction have still been able to motor on to Bimini? Or for that matter a gemini that had been filled with foam as mentioned in this thread?
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:38   #92
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It is not a government rating. RCD is independent of any government it is a mandatory European Union directive and it was created for harmonizing the safety requirements related to the design and construction of boats across Europe.
You need to look at what a mandatory EU derictive is. It is a directive which must be enshrined in legislation by individual EU nations. For instance:

"The RCD was implemented in the UK as the Recreational Craft Regulations and came into force on 16 June 1998. Any boat placed on the EU market after this date, whether a new build or imported from outside the EU, must be CE-marked."

i.e. It is a Government Regulation. Regardless of who drafted it, is is a government rating in any EU country..
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:41   #93
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Re: Cat capcized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Must be different in your part of the world, anecdotally that is not the case here, and personally I have yet to effect a rescue (Volunteer Coast Guard) from a mono that WASN'T sinking. in other words 100% of the mono rescues I have done were from sinking monos. And thats not a criticism of the boats, in every case the sailor was at fault for creating the disaster.
You can only be joking about that or you don't pay attention regarding news. I could put lot's of videos of monohulls being abandoned, some of them even without any apparent reason, except that the crew had taken too much. Those that are are on video are a minority. For each that is on you tube there are probably several others that were not recorded.
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:42   #94
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Would a different model Camera with safer construction have still been able to motor on to Bimini? Or for that matter a gemini that had been filled with foam as mentioned in this thread
A compromised through-hull fitting will provide problems for any and all boats. Maybe they left their A/C through-hull open and a hose slipped off......or an added generator valve........Who knows...... Gemini doesn't make through-hull fittings.

Any boat that has a breach, has a serious problem. There isn't any catamaran produced that would be better in this situation. An EPIRB, VHF radio and a life raft are the only solutions, and even then, you still need some luck.............
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:44   #95
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by the_fixer View Post
Question.

People post about sailing cats flipping. If it were due to the hull design / bridge does the same thing happen to power cats? Seems like they would be more at risk if it were due to profile and wind having the ability to flip them.
Power cats don't have that big sail area way up in the air. A sailboat flipping is more likely to be induced initially by carrying too much sail for the conditions. A problem that power cats don't have.
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:49   #96
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
You need to look at what a mandatory EU derictive is. It is a directive which must be enshrined in legislation by individual EU nations. For instance:

"The RCD was implemented in the UK as the Recreational Craft Regulations and came into force on 16 June 1998. Any boat placed on the EU market after this date, whether a new build or imported from outside the EU, must be CE-marked."

i.e. It is a Government Regulation. Regardless of who drafted it, is is a government rating in any EU country..
If a regulation is made by a government and is therefore a government regulation it is implied that the government can control it and can modify it. But no, the only a government can do and is obliged to do, is to enforce the RCD.

There is no European government but only countries governments. The directives come from the European parliament and that is not a government.

The RCD was made and is modified by an independent technical committee and then subjected to the European parliament for approval.

If approved all the EU governments will have a period of time to revert it to their national law. It is mandatory and they have no power to modify or not to accept it. They are obliged to enforce it.
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:50   #97
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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We have several Geminis in the harbor, and they are all dock queens--I've never seen one out sailing. There was an older guy who used to sit on his all day near the YC hoist. He finally got too old, and it was sold last year to younger owners. I don't know if the new owners took it out, but they spent a fair bit of time on the boat at the dock. Now there is another for sale sign on it...
And how is this comment useful?
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Old 05-02-2016, 16:50   #98
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

My question was in response to the posts talking about sailing cats being overturned / flipped / turning turtle without the sails up speculating that they are so unstable that just the mass of the mast was enough for the wind to cause the flip.

Just seems improbable




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Old 05-02-2016, 18:06   #99
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Re: Cat capcized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You can only be joking about that or you don't pay attention regarding news. I could put lot's of videos of monohulls being abandoned, some of them even without any apparent reason, except that the crew had taken too much. Those that are are on video are a minority. For each that is on you tube there are probably several others that were not recorded.
I am not joking. I am telling you the facts - not my opinion or what I have seen on the internet, just the facts, every single rescue of a mono I have been involved in - the boat was or had sunk, AGAIN not a criticism of the boat, almost always the operators fault. OK - clear enough for you.
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Old 05-02-2016, 20:46   #100
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Nahbrown View Post
I registered today due to this thread after months of lurking so first of all, thanks for the wealth of knowledge that the CF members share freely.

Secondly I had been thinking that Geminis were the right size (and yes budget) for my wife and I to retire on for a year or two in the Caribbean. This thread has highlighted the differences in construction to a point that I wouldn't want to risk a breach or failed pass through on a boat that isnt built to be buoyant. Are the Gemini MC models built the same as the 3000s in this regard?

Again thank you to all who contribute their experience, knowledge and opinions on this forum.
Welcome to the forum. Two things - First is be careful when reading these threads about developing fear. If not, soon you will constantly question your anchor, chain, gps charts, rudders, through hulls, safety from burglars, safety from port authorities, and about 100 other issues. The second is that worrying about whether a cat is buoyant enough to float if holed should be way, way, way down on your list of deciding factors on purchasing one. IMO of course.
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Old 05-02-2016, 23:12   #101
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Davy J View Post
A compromised through-hull fitting will provide problems for any and all boats. Maybe they left their A/C through-hull open and a hose slipped off......or an added generator valve........Who knows...... Gemini doesn't make through-hull fittings.

Any boat that has a breach, has a serious problem. There isn't any catamaran produced that would be better in this situation. An EPIRB, VHF radio and a life raft are the only solutions, and even then, you still need some luck.............
Speaking of broken through hull fittings, I wonder how many people carry damage control wooden plugs on their boats? I remember having damage control kits in the Navy that consisted of rubber sheets, waxed twine, tools, various sizes of wooden plugs, plywood, lumber to use as shoring, strongbacks, shingles, patching materials, etc.

I can't help but think it would have been pretty easy to determine the source of the leak and plug it, then let the bilge pump do it's job.
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Old 05-02-2016, 23:16   #102
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Welcome to the forum. Two things - First is be careful when reading these threads about developing fear. If not, soon you will constantly question your anchor, chain, gps charts, rudders, through hulls, safety from burglars, safety from port authorities, and about 100 other issues. The second is that worrying about whether a cat is buoyant enough to float if holed should be way, way, way down on your list of deciding factors on purchasing one. IMO of course.
I'd like to add that you can certainly learn a lot from these threads, preparedness goes a long way when the defecation hits the rotating fan blades. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of "Ah, crap!"
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Old 06-02-2016, 00:57   #103
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by lindabarzini View Post
And how is this comment useful?
Well Linda, its because the whole thread is about a Gemini which ran into trouble when it tried to leave the harbor and go to the Bahamas. Here on the west coast, the prevailing conditions can be a bit challenging. My point was that very few if any Gemini's actually do leave the harbor here. I'm just speculating that the reason that these boats don't go out more often is they are not good boats for Northern California conditions. If you didn't get the point, I suggest you buy/rent/charter a Gemini, take it offshore, and report back to the group.

I actually thought about buying a Gemini to do the Great Loop, leaving the mast at the starting point and motoring around the ICW and rivers. A friend loaned me a Grand Banks 42 which served us well, but the fuel bill would have been a hell of a lot lower with the Gemini.
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:09   #104
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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If you didn't get the point, I suggest you buy/rent/charter a Gemini, take it offshore, and report back to the group.
So let me get this correct.

You have never sailed on a Gemini, nor have you owned one. But because you saw one, across from you on the dock, that doesn't seem to go anywhere, you are fully confident in your opinion that these boats are unfit to float in a bathtub...............
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:12   #105
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Davy J View Post
So let me get this correct.

You have never sailed on a Gemini, nor have you owned one. But because you saw one, across from you on the dock, that doesn't seem to go anywhere, you are fully confident in your opinion that these boats are unfit to float in a bathtub...............
This is CF, experience isn't necessary to have a strong opinion.
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