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Old 05-02-2016, 05:45   #76
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Nahbrown View Post
Valhalla 360, I thought that a commom characteristic of Catamarans was thier inherent buoyancy. Obviously I was mistaken and all cats are not created as such.

Livability, stability and safety are the reasons I had focused on catamarans. Size and price led me to look at Geminis. I am still in the learning phase and cant buy for another 20 months anyway. So much more to learn...
If it's really a concern, plan on foaming the compartments.

For the price, it's hard to beat the livability and stability.
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:56   #77
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

We had a Gemini. I filled the crash compartments with 2 liter soda bottles.
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:26   #78
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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He did pursue and obtain the top EU standard for Ocean going pleasure boats. There were a couple of minor changes (door sill was raised a few inches for example).

Personally wouldn't want to do an ocean crossing in any 34' boat but assuming everything was checked out ahead of time, I wouldn't worry about the boat if I had to take a Gemini. You are likely to give out long before the boat does.
RCD approved for offshore use, class A, refers to a minimum and 35ft (Gemini) is pretty much the smallest cat approved as Class A. Trimarans can get a bit down in size and I believe the smallest one approved Class A is the Dragonfly 32. Monohulls can reach class A in even smaller sizes and I believe the smallest one is the 25ft Django 7.70.

Saying this, we are talking here about minimum that are considered safe by RCD. What one considers safe it will depend on personal criteria regarding safety margins since there is always some risk involved. I sure would not feel safe crossing the Atlantic one a 25ft monohull even if they have made safely that crossing.
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Old 05-02-2016, 06:29   #79
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Livability, stability and safety are the reasons I had focused on catamarans. Size and price led me to look at Geminis. I am still in the learning phase and cant buy for another 20 months anyway. So much more to learn...
Do your research and buy the boat that is right for you. If everyone avoided a particular vessel because of some unfortunate event, no one would go anywhere.

Seamanship and preparedness are more important than the vessel. People have crossed into the Bahamas on stand-up paddle boards.

I don't intend to cross the Atlantic. However, if I do, I saved enough on the purchase of my boat to send it over on Dockwise..........
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Old 05-02-2016, 07:42   #80
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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RCD approved for offshore use, class A, refers to a minimum and 35ft (Gemini) is pretty much the smallest cat approved as Class A. Trimarans can get a bit down in size and I believe the smallest one approved Class A is the Dragonfly 32. Monohulls can reach class A in even smaller sizes and I believe the smallest one is the 25ft Django 7.70.

Saying this, we are talking here about minimum that are considered safe by RCD. What one considers safe it will depend on personal criteria regarding safety margins since there is always some risk involved. I sure would not feel safe crossing the Atlantic one a 25ft monohull even if they have made safely that crossing.
I was correcting the comment that the builder doesn't want them crossing oceans which doesn't make sense if he got it certified for crossing oceans and took one across an ocean himself. The comment is taken out of context.

I have little faith in a govt rating.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:07   #81
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Just look at the numbers. when we were shopping around for used catamarans, of course we very quickly focused on the Gemini 105Mc. For about two years I read everything I could find on them. At that time ( 2008) there were more than 1,000 Gemini's sold. No idea what that number is up to now, but it must be up around 1200 at least.

How many have had problems with the boat flipping or sinking? Divide that number by 1200, and you will get a very, very low percentage of these boats with perceived issues of safety or reliability. Compare that to any other model of production sailboat, and I suspect you are safer in a Gemini than just about anything else, statistically.

As for the monohull/multihull questions...well...if I was going to be on a boat and had to lose one through hull completely at sea with no way to plug it, I know which one I'd rather be on. No question whatsoever. Not even a fraction of a percent.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:31   #82
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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I was correcting the comment that the builder doesn't want them crossing oceans which doesn't make sense if he got it certified for crossing oceans and took one across an ocean himself. ...

I have little faith in a govt rating.
It is not a government rating. RCD is independent of any government it is a mandatory European Union directive and it was created for harmonizing the safety requirements related to the design and construction of boats across Europe.

The ones that created it and revise it (it is not a closed document)are diverse groups of Naval architects and naval engineers with relevant work on Yachts design, after many consults to relevant bodies.

I have many times heard critics to the requirements for class A, as the last safety step for offshore work (as being not less demanding) but never the seriousness of the studies and the effectiveness of the demanded stability and others requirements.

There is talks that a new step in what regards seaworthiness will be created, not diminishing the existent one for class A but creating a more demanding one, offshore boats with larger safety margins and probably that is why Category A today, as by the RCD is not called Ocean anymore.

Category A does not refers to unlimited boats or even a true offshore boats but simply, according with the last revision (2013):

Category
A :
A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves.


Class A refers to a minimum. Most bigger boats that are Class A exceed by far the stability requeirements of class A. Sure class A boats can cross oceans but if they are close to the minimum requirements they are not designed to be sailed on a storm, being here storm defined by the Beaufort typification of F10:

"Very high waves with overhanging crests. Large patches of foam from wave crests give the sea a white appearance. Considerable tumbling of waves with heavy impact. Large amounts of airborne spray reduce visibility, winds from 48 to 55K.

By the way, small monohulls that are really on the limit to pass RCD, like the 25ft Django 7.70 have to be unthinkable to pass the safety demands.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:31   #83
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Let's remember how the original mono vs. multi argument started.

The claim was that multis were unsafe because they could capsize.
The retort was that IF MULTIS CAPSIZED they were very unlikely to sink.

The possibility of a multi sinking if it is upright with the bottom torn out is greater than if it is capsized and in otherwise undamaged condition. The multi may still not sink depending on the construction method, but there can be a lot of variation in that.

Polux asked me about my "statistics", but in his post he kept referring to multihulls sinking whereas I was talking about multis capsizing. There is a difference.
Anna, the Chris White Atlantic that capsized, remained afloat for 8 days (I think) until it washed ashore. The crew was picked up about a day after the capsize sitting on the hulls.
Beats hell out of swimming.

I've had long-term experience on two tris and two cats. Three of them were wood, my current boat is fiberglass with foam core and floatation compartments, and I don't think you could sink any of them with just one breached area in one hull.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:46   #84
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Just look at the numbers. when we were shopping around for used catamarans, of course we very quickly focused on the Gemini 105Mc. For about two years I read everything I could find on them. At that time ( 2008) there were more than 1,000 Gemini's sold. No idea what that number is up to now, but it must be up around 1200 at least.

How many have had problems with the boat flipping or sinking? Divide that number by 1200, and you will get a very, very low percentage of these boats with perceived issues of safety or reliability. Compare that to any other model of production sailboat, and I suspect you are safer in a Gemini than just about anything else, statistically.

As for the monohull/multihull questions...well...if I was going to be on a boat and had to lose one through hull completely at sea with no way to plug it, I know which one I'd rather be on. No question whatsoever. Not even a fraction of a percent.

Quite a few years ago the topic of Gemini capsizes came up. At the time I think I knew of at least 8-9 that had capsized and I'm sure there are a few more since then. That's how I came up with the statement that approximately 1% of Geminis had capsized. As others have said, the recent capsize was more due to the flooding of a hull rather than wind induced. Their was the story of the Privilege 39 that had one hull holed in the Caribbean years ago. The charterers abandoned the boat but the boat was found motoring in circles as the hull that was holed had submerged the engine, so only one motor was left running and in gear.




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Old 05-02-2016, 12:56   #85
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
Let's remember how the original mono vs. multi argument started.

The claim was that multis were unsafe because they could capsize.
The retort was that IF MULTIS CAPSIZED they were very unlikely to sink.

The possibility of a multi sinking if it is upright with the bottom torn out is greater than if it is capsized and in otherwise undamaged condition. The multi may still not sink depending on the construction method, but there can be a lot of variation in that.

Polux asked me about my "statistics", but in his post he kept referring to multihulls sinking whereas I was talking about multis capsizing. There is a difference.
Anna, the Chris White Atlantic that capsized, remained afloat for 8 days (I think) until it washed ashore. The crew was picked up about a day after the capsize sitting on the hulls.
Beats hell out of swimming.

I've had long-term experience on two tris and two cats. Three of them were wood, my current boat is fiberglass with foam core and floatation compartments, and I don't think you could sink any of them with just one breached area in one hull.
Polux is inventing his own facts. As usual. He says only very "sportiv" cat's will stay afloat. And yet there is a Leopard 40 that has stayed afloat for a YEAR. A Leopard 40 "Sportive"?

The vast majority of production cat's have cored construction, above the waterline at least. Most of them will stay afloat, even when flooded.
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Old 05-02-2016, 13:46   #86
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Re: Cat capcized in the gulf stream.

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Unfortunately most monohulls that are abandoned are not because they are sinking but because people are afraid they can capsize (many even before the boat has been rolled) or have a broken rudder or mast. Most of those boats don't sink and many are known to be washed ashore on distant shores.
Must be different in your part of the world, anecdotally that is not the case here, and personally I have yet to effect a rescue (Volunteer Coast Guard) from a mono that WASN'T sinking. in other words 100% of the mono rescues I have done were from sinking monos. And thats not a criticism of the boats, in every case the sailor was at fault for creating the disaster.
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Old 05-02-2016, 14:37   #87
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Do your research and buy the boat that is right for you. If everyone avoided a particular vessel because of some unfortunate event, no one would go anywhere.

Seamanship and preparedness are more important than the vessel. People have crossed into the Bahamas on stand-up paddle boards.

I don't intend to cross the Atlantic. However, if I do, I saved enough on the purchase of my boat to send it over on Dockwise..........
And you'll fit in a lot of the canals.
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Old 05-02-2016, 15:16   #88
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

We have several Geminis in the harbor, and they are all dock queens--I've never seen one out sailing. There was an older guy who used to sit on his all day near the YC hoist. He finally got too old, and it was sold last year to younger owners. I don't know if the new owners took it out, but they spent a fair bit of time on the boat at the dock. Now there is another for sale sign on it...
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Old 05-02-2016, 15:20   #89
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

Question.

People post about sailing cats flipping. If it were due to the hull design / bridge does the same thing happen to power cats? Seems like they would be more at risk if it were due to profile and wind having the ability to flip them.
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Old 05-02-2016, 15:42   #90
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Re: Cat capsized in the gulf stream.

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Question.

People post about sailing cats flipping. If it were due to the hull design / bridge does the same thing happen to power cats? Seems like they would be more at risk if it were due to profile and wind having the ability to flip them.
in large winds, when your cat comes on top of steep wave, wind will zoom under bridgedeck. i think that is one to worry.

Among other reasons that is why cats have nets in front. Of course sailing boat is less stable with rig that has centre of weight around 10 m above water and weights 200 kg or so. So maybe motor cat does not need net. Hope designers did the job properly.

I think I need to think thru flip scenario and prepare. One needs manual pump to pump in/out air and water. Probably needs to close thruhulls etc. Cat is safe inverted and would be stupid not utilising this option in disaster scenario.
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