Cat buying causing domestic strife!

[Catmandu]

We started the same quest 11 years ago. We stared our journey going to boat shows and along the way met David Renou (great guy previously mentioned in this thread) who was the US Catana rep. He invited us to sail on a Catana 47 for a week down the Windward islands (about 300-400nm). We had no sailing experience whatsoever before this trip except for what we could glean from reading many many books.

We left Le Marin Martinique with about 10 other Catanas and about 40 other charter boats (mono's and multihulls) that were all island hopping south for the week.

As Akpb noted cats do pretty much what cats do when sailing and this was true of the Catana. David is a very experienced sailor and racer and determined that we were going to beat the other Catanas the next port (bragging rights are everything). We played with sail trim and daggerboard settings but no matter what we tried the boat would settled in and do 10-11kts all day long.

Catanas have a high bridgedeck clearance and we were able to maintain 10-11kts speed through 8'-12' cross seas between the islands (martinique, St Vincent, St. Lucia) and the boat never slammed once. The motion inside was "jerky" at this speed and you had to be careful moving around. Some of the other charter cats with lower bridge deck clearance had to motor through these seas at 5-6 kts "picking their way through" due to slamming.

We sailed when other cats (and even a few mono's) motored.

Rule of thumb: cats that you cannot drive the dinghy under will slam more ...

Each morning we would hear the mono's weigh anchor between 6 and 6:30am to head to the next island south. Around 7:30-8:00 am the other charter cats left. We would leave sometime between 9 and 9:30 and by noon we were passing the mono's, an hour later the charter cats to be the first ones to the next anchorage.

Rule: if you can beat everyone else to the anchorage you get the best spot ...

I felt sorry for the mono's at the Mustique anchorage. It is narrow and the farther out you anchor the more swell you experience. I watched their anchor lights roll 15-20 degrees side to side all night only to get up at 6:00 am to weigh anchor and do all again ... tough.

Rule: Cats with skegs do not point as well as cats with daggerboards. The Catana w/ its daggerboards would point well and tacked 90 degrees under sail in 20+ kts of apparent wind (no motors needed).

Even with the Catana's direct drive steering there is less helm feel than that of a mono, in fact I have sailed some cats with hydraulic steering and it was hard to tell if the helm was connected to the rudders. However, as pointed out earlier, you mostly use the autopilot. We would trim and tweak for the first hour or so until we proved to ourselves that the boat was going to sit at 10-11kts and then we would set the autopilot for the rest of the trip. One of my great memories was sitting around the aft table playing cards as green mountains of St Vincent passed by.

Rule: Cats do not tack as easily as a mono's and are not as maneuverable under sail ... in my experience they are more what I call "point and shoot" boats.

Rule: you have to pay more attention sailing a cat as in gusty conditions they do not spill wind ... but there is something pretty cool about feeling the boat accelerate from out from under your feet as you go to reef.

Rule: "If you think it might be time to reef - just do it" ... boat will still go 10-12 kts.

Rule: A Cat's performance suffers off wind ... get a screecher and an asym and "tack downwind"

Rule: A cats performance is better cracked off than hard on the wind ... VMG is your friend. That being said, daggerboard boats can point high ... but why do that if you can add 50% more speed by falling off 15 degrees?

Rule: Adding weight really does kill a cat's performance faster than a mono ... be careful

Rule: If you have to motorsail (God forbid) cats can do this pretty well. Adding one motor in light airs (4-5kts) pulls the apparent wind forward, the sails start to draw, the apparent wind increases and moves forward some more and so on until pretty soon the boat is clipping along at 9-10kts with one motor at 1,600-1,800 rpm ...

I liked the idea/romance feel of a mono, my wife could not come to grips with a boat that could sink to the bottom even though she loved the feel of sailing a Catalina 22 with a tiller. We argued about this (dumb) and she basically said that I could go visit all the mono's I wanted at the boat show and she would wait for me at the cafe.

She got sold on the safety claims of being able to pick up daggerboards in big seas and directed that we would get a daggerboard boat ... that narrowed the search considerably.

Spend a week or two on each - try them out with the kids. If you want your wife to lean towards a cat have your kids bring friends ...

In the end its best to try and optimize your use case and constraints to the various tradeoffs out there. There is no perfect cat, there is no perfect mono but no matter what you decide you will be happier on a boat that your wife picks ...

good luck!

[Clipper4730]

Ok I'll wade in here😁We wanted a cat, chartered both and loved the livability and space of a cat. And then we we woke up to reality. If you are ok with a worn out underbuilt under fitted charter boat then go for it. In our budget 200k we just couldn't find the right cat for us. And believe me we looked. The former charter boats were worthless, beat up run out and banks hate them(if you are going to finance) For what we would have spent on an ex-charter cat we bought an exceptionally equipped mono one owner with all the bells and whistles walk around berth separate shower enormous saloon 800hrs on the engine and less on the gennny watermaker ssb 300ft of chain hooked to a maxwell 2500 and haven't looked back. Yes I would love a shallower draft but enjoy the marina bill for your cat. If you will be anchoring all the time no worries. We looked at a lot of boats cats and monos and at the end of the day we bought the mono and have absolutely zero regrets. Good luck in your search we wish you all the best and hope to see you in an anchorage nearby soon😁 Oh and another thing unless you have boards don't even think about going to weather.

Cheerio

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Clipper4730

Ok I'll wade in here😁We wanted a cat, chartered both and loved the livability and space of a cat. And then we we woke up to reality. If you are ok with a worn out underbuilt under fitted charter boat then go for it. In our budget 200k we just couldn't find the right cat for us. And believe me we looked. The former charter boats were worthless, beat up run out and banks hate them(if you are going to finance) For what we would have spent on an ex-charter cat we bought an exceptionally equipped mono one owner with all the bells and whistles walk around berth separate shower enormous saloon 800hrs on the engine and less on the gennny watermaker ssb 300ft of chain hooked to a maxwell 2500 and haven't looked back. Yes I would love a shallower draft but enjoy the marina bill for your cat. If you will be anchoring all the time no worries. We looked at a lot of boats cats and monos and at the end of the day we bought the mono and have absolutely zero regrets. Good luck in your search we wish you all the best and hope to see you in an anchorage nearby soon😁 Oh and another thing unless you have boards don't even think about going to weather.

Cheerio

Exactly, this was the point I was trying to make. Its not monos are better than cats or vis versa, its getting the most boat for the dollars you have.

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[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by fuentes

You mentioned 3 kids. How much weight has been given to the comfort, well being and enjoyment of the kids. Three unhappy kids is a handful! Specially in the reduced and confined area of a boat. It is something I struggled with all of my life. How to balance and allocate resources can be difficult. Each kids likes and dislikes, ambitions, etc. is different. Then they change as they get older.
I just thought I would throw that in there to make things even more difficult.

Yeah, you have 3 conflicting needs:
- Cheap (relatviely)
- High Performance
- Space and load capacity for a family of 5 to live comfortably

You can get any two of those but it typically excludes the third.

As others have suggested get a nice comfortable cat and a performance sailing dingy for the adrenaline rush.

Question: if you were considering a mono what would you consider an acceptable mono for a family of 5 living full time on board sailing the world? That should help direct the conversation to comparable (relatively) cats.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh..!!! but the 'Buzz' is not quite the same somehow.. on a beat with all sail up, the vibration running through the boat when she take the bit between her teeth as the water washes along the gunnel is not the same as the feeling on a modern cat.. nearest I've got is 16kts on a Tiki 26 as I passed a freighter in the Channel.. we were both headed for Cherbourg.. and that was a wet but glorious ride..

Wet?
Vibration?

A cat will fix that Boatie...

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by weavis

Wet?
Vibration?

A cat will fix that Boatie...:bigg rin:

You must not of sailed a large modern mono? Wet? Vibration? They get in a groove that just feels right, its a in the moment thing!

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[Sos]

There is loads of very good advice on here but the only way you are going to decide is to try out a catamaran. Try and get sails on as many as possible and make sure the kids go along. Having spent a year on a 40' Wharram with 4 kids and 5 adults on board during school holidays, I know my preference! A catamaran is a very stable platform and has plenty of room for kids to get some space. You will also be much more comfotable at anchor on a cat without the rolling and more than likely closer to shore. These are all advantages.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by daletournier

You must not of sailed a large modern mono? Wet? Vibration? They get in a groove that just feels right, its a in the moment thing!

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I have.
And it is called a joke.

I have the slowest boat out there.. a Westerly Centaur...

[weavis]

The mod team is alive and well thank you. We do our job on behalf of all the members. It may not suit your timetable, sorry about that. If each member complied with the rules, we would be happy to not be heard at all..

We have removed a heap of posts.

Comments on moderation is a no no. Fighting is a no no and plain rudeness is a no no.


If you respond to a post, is really best to be nice even if your opinion differs greatly from what is posted. This is a discussion board and differences can take place without disrespect. A well reasoned and non derogatory response is more likely to elicit a change of opinion over time rather than begin an exchange of rancour.

Carry on..

[daletournier]

The main benefit I see regarding a cat and your situation is "four cabins". One of the things I like most about cats is the privacy provided by the two hulls, and the saloon is a common area. Even a big mono dosent provide that sort of seperation, although fore and aft cabins on a large mono maybe further apart than cabins in opposite hulls of a cat ,it just isn't the same imho, the cat gives a sense of more privacy.


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[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

Wet?
Vibration?

A cat will fix that Boatie...

The vibration (quiver) is as a mono bites into its 'Groove' as Dale says..
The 'Wet' was on the Tiki 26, an open decked cat where I was often waist deep in water as she burst though the waves.. a wet ride.
Try a real boat.. not a Condo..

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The vibration (quiver) is as a mono bites into its 'Groove' as Dale says..
The 'Wet' was on the Tiki 26, an open decked cat where I was often waist deep in water as she burst though the waves.. a wet ride.
Try a real boat.. not a Condo..

I've mentioned before that my first boat was a tiki 31, loved that boat but I really get the wet boat thing :-) I met Henke de velve once, he circumnavigated on a Wharram Oro. He was telling me about cyclone Oscar, he was in the middle of it, wife and young baby in one of the hulls and he was tired to the deck hand steering while bits of boat were flying past him.......now that's wet!!

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[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The vibration (quiver) is as a mono bites into its 'Groove' as Dale says..
The 'Wet' was on the Tiki 26, an open decked cat where I was often waist deep in water as she burst though the waves.. a wet ride.
Try a real boat.. not a Condo..

Hee hee

Ive had my share of fast wet rides. I do like it.
However, there comes a time on a cruise when fast and wet loses its appeal..

My buddy bought a Lamboghini a few years ago. He commuted from Oxford to London. sold it because the clutch just about broke his ankle.

Horses for courses...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Exactly, this was the point I was trying to make. Its not monos are better than cats or vis versa, its getting the most boat for the dollars you have.

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But do you?

A 40-45' cat is comparable to maybe a 55'-60' mono. I suspect that if you run the numbers, the cost to buy and maintain will be similar and quite likely a little lower for the cat. Obviously, that assumes you compare like-for-like (ie: an ultra high performance cat won't measure up the same on living space compared to a cruising oriented boat like an island packet).

I'm still back to the big issue. The OP wants high performance thrill machine that comfortably carries a family of 5 on a bargain price.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But do you?

A 40-45' cat is comparable to maybe a 55'-60' mono. I suspect that if you run the numbers, the cost to buy and maintain will be similar and quite likely a little lower for the cat. Obviously, that assumes you compare like-for-like (ie: an ultra high performance cat won't measure up the same on living space compared to a cruising oriented boat like an island packet).

I'm still back to the big issue. The OP wants high performance thrill machine that comfortably carries a family of 5 on a bargain price.

I dont know for sure but I have the feeling the Cat being double in everything, hulls engines etc will cost more?

But having either would be great!