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Old 13-08-2008, 21:04   #16
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Jmolan, Thanks for all the info on the c/f masts. Apart from the considerable costs it sounds good! Natureboy
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Old 17-08-2008, 08:40   #17
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carbon masts

I've sailed on a multihull with a rotating wing mast. We easily attained speeds of 15 knots in about 20 kts wind. Are there any downsides to carbon rotating masts?
Also, earlier in this thread and elsewhere, there has been some discussion of synthetic rigging versus wire. My concern is durability. UV damage is inevitable, and my concern is sudden catastrophic failure of stays and shrouds due to this damage. Losing a rig in the middle of an ocean would be a disaster and a reason to avoid synthetics which might be susceptible to UV. Comments?

Rocky
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Old 17-08-2008, 08:57   #18
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Ian,

I build a 57' carbon wing mast (I think it is about 17"x9").

The mast was build using 150 lbs of carbon and 150 lbs of resin. Adding wiring, spreaders, sail track and other stuff I would figure the mast to weigh in at 400-450 lbs

Arjan
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Old 17-08-2008, 09:18   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spammy View Post
I've sailed on a multihull with a rotating wing mast. We easily attained speeds of 15 knots in about 20 kts wind. Are there any downsides to carbon rotating masts?
Also, earlier in this thread and elsewhere, there has been some discussion of synthetic rigging versus wire. My concern is durability. UV damage is inevitable, and my concern is sudden catastrophic failure of stays and shrouds due to this damage. Losing a rig in the middle of an ocean would be a disaster and a reason to avoid synthetics which might be susceptible to UV. Comments?

Rocky
Rotating masts are heavier than non rotating masts and give more wear and tear to the rigging , no matter if this is PBO or Dyform stainless , UV damage is possible for Spectra if not covered with a nylon sleeve , Dyneema rigging is more UV Stable but shoulkd also be covered , not only for UV but also for external damage.
Dyform stainless is not proven to be more durable than PBO rigging

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Old 17-08-2008, 16:50   #20
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Some downsides to rotating rigs also include the difficulties with masthead nav lights, and masthead wind transducers.

Some riggers I've spoken to say that rotating masts fall over more often, but realistically more rotating rigs are used on racing rather than cruising boats, so I'm not sure how representative that is.

What might be the clincher for me is the added difficulties of leading halyards and reefing lines back to the cockpit with rotating rigs.
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Old 17-08-2008, 17:02   #21
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You are right, masthead nav lights don't work and wind transducers that work on rotating mast are possible but your choices are limited I believe B&G, nexus and TackTick have systems that compensate for mast rotation. I have mounted the transducer on a radar mount way aft but are planning to relocate it to the tip of a long pole protruding from the aft beam at an angle to get a better, but surely not perfect reading.
I did not feel that there were any issues leading the halyards and reef lines aft. On Rotkat I have the main halyard, the topping lift and two sets of reef lines run back to the aft beam to a electric winch. The reef lines exit out the bottom of the boom and the halyards are led through the center of the mast rotator base.
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Old 17-08-2008, 17:03   #22
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Quote:
Some downsides to rotating rigs also include the difficulties with masthead nav lights
Agreed.

Quote:
, and masthead wind transducers.
There are several solutions, B&G, Nexus, NKE and TackTick.

Some riggers I've spoken to say that rotating masts fall over more often, but realistically more rotating rigs are used on racing rather than cruising boats, so I'm not sure how representative that is.

Quote:
What might be the clincher for me is the added difficulties of leading halyards and reefing lines back to the cockpit with rotating rigs.
My reefing lines can go through a couple of blocks attached to the "boom hinge pin" and lead back through an organiser on the coachroof.

The halyard can go through a Spinlock jammer that can be remotely opened and closed. Put it up at the top of the mast and save yourself a bunch of other issues. Lead it aft through a turning block on the mast. Just don't leave it on a winch. No problem Just a few more dollars

Use soft rigging and save weight, and expensive hardware. Spinnaker halyard can double as a spare forestay, topping lift as a spare main halyard. Carry enough Spectra/Dyneema to rerig the stays etc.

Even better, go unstayed.


Cheers

Alan
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Old 17-08-2008, 22:03   #23
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Originally Posted by Spammy View Post
I've sailed on a multihull with a rotating wing mast. We easily attained speeds of 15 knots in about 20 kts wind. Are there any downsides to carbon rotating masts?
Also, earlier in this thread and elsewhere, there has been some discussion of synthetic rigging versus wire. My concern is durability. UV damage is inevitable, and my concern is sudden catastrophic failure of stays and shrouds due to this damage. Losing a rig in the middle of an ocean would be a disaster and a reason to avoid synthetics which might be susceptible to UV. Comments?

Rocky
G'day,

Downsides are 1) Lightning. There is lots of talk about this, including some fairy stories (shards of carbon piercing the deck, masts catching fire), but not much in the way of verified facts or pictures. 2) cost if you have it built as a one off.

Build it yourself and the materials in a carbon mast will be cheaper than a bought alloy one, and about 60% of the weight.

Absolutely agree that a mast falling down in the middle of an ocean (or anywhere else) is a disaster. Go unstayed and save yourself a heap of worry and money. See for an unstayed cruisig mast going 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze. It would be quicker if it was an unstayed wing mast. The mast in the video weighs 120 kgs, cost $Aus15,000/$US13,500 incl track and paint.

regards,
Rob
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Old 18-08-2008, 09:43   #24
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One of the complaints I've heard from the racing crews about carbon spars is the shards. When you pitch the rig the carbon splinters and you can end up with carbon needles under your skin. Problem is you can't see them with x-ray so the doctors have a tough time getting them out.
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Old 18-08-2008, 11:27   #25
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One of the complaints I've heard from the racing crews about carbon spars is the shards. When you pitch the rig the carbon splinters and you can end up with carbon needles under your skin. Problem is you can't see them with x-ray so the doctors have a tough time getting them out.
Joli, Interesting comment, can the mast be coated or treated in any way to eliminate this problem.?
Ian
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Old 18-08-2008, 11:46   #26
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a friend has an unstayed rotating carbon fiber mast on a 10 year old prout 45. According to him, the cost of the whole rotating mast was over 100k, but it seems as structurally stable as it was to begin with. BTW, he bought the boat for a 100k less than other boats of that vintage and make because many potential buyers were worried about the replacement costs and other potential issues with an unstayed rotating carbon fiber rig.

I checked out the carbon fiber park avenue boom as a potential easy replacement, and it's cost were about 18k.
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Old 18-08-2008, 11:51   #27
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Here's some correspondence when I was checking out the price myself, which seems to be a very good price

Hi Doug,

$35,000 to 40,000 depending on finish (clear, paint) and hardware.

Clint

Clint H. Rand

FORTE
Carbon Fiber Products
www.fortecarbon.com
14 Lorenz Industrial Pkwy, Ledyard , CT 06339
Phone: 860-464-5221
Fax: 860-464-5229

To: sales@fortecarbon.com
Subject: carbon fiber cost estimate for St Francis 44



mast height off deck is approximately 57 ft supporting 700 sq ft main and 500 sq ft Genoa .
What would be the approximate costs and weight savings for replacing the boom and mast?
Rough guide, this is primarily a wish list right now
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Old 18-08-2008, 14:57   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
My reefing lines can go through a couple of blocks attached to the "boom hinge pin" and lead back through an organiser on the coachroof.

The halyard can go through a Spinlock jammer that can be remotely opened and closed. Put it up at the top of the mast and save yourself a bunch of other issues. Lead it aft through a turning block on the mast. Just don't leave it on a winch. No problem Just a few more dollars



Cheers

Alan
The halyard and reefing lines need to have their first turning point on deck directly under the mast's centre of rotation, otherwise when the mast rotates the tension on these lines will vary. On some boats the lines are led under the bridgedeck for this reason. I don't want to do that at this stage. Another option would be an elevated mast step with the turning blocks underneath, but for me it's all getting a bit too hard.

I think I'll just go with a non rotating spar, and a good set of battcars.
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Old 18-08-2008, 15:05   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
Here's some correspondence when I was checking out the price myself, which seems to be a very good price

Hi Doug,

$35,000 to 40,000 depending on finish (clear, paint) and hardware.

Clint

Clint H. Rand

FORTE
Carbon Fiber Products
www.fortecarbon.com
14 Lorenz Industrial Pkwy, Ledyard , CT 06339
Phone: 860-464-5221
Fax: 860-464-5229


To: sales@fortecarbon.com
Subject: carbon fiber cost estimate for St Francis 44



mast height off deck is approximately 57 ft supporting 700 sq ft main and 500 sq ft Genoa .
What would be the approximate costs and weight savings for replacing the boom and mast?
Rough guide, this is primarily a wish list right now

I'm getting 16 metres of aluminium mast section delivered to my door for less than $2500 Aus and 6.5m of boom section for $700.

Carbon would be nice, but the weight saving (maybe 45 kg) isn't worth an extra $32,500+ to me.
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Old 18-08-2008, 16:14   #30
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If going for a new stick why not go the whole way and go free standing. If its for a new build the stick may end up cheaper than a complete stayed rig.Mike
We just had a Cat come in with a Rotating, free standing carbon rig. It looks pretty slick. The mast height seems lower than mine but some of the guys in the marina have been out on her, and say she sails like a dream.

I'll post some photos when I find them.
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