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Old 06-11-2016, 14:25   #271
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
What about them? Have you managed to read my rigging review calculations?? Its not as bad as it first appears to a lot of naysayers.
It would certainly be much more difficult to maintain forestay tension with the mast stepped so far aft, compared to a more normal rig, particularly those where the mast is raked aft.
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Old 06-11-2016, 14:47   #272
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I think if you click on that link, AND wait for a a minute, the paper will pull up without a password.

It was slightly too large of a PDF to attach to this forum.

If that doesn't work, perhaps google that title and it will lead you to another copy.
Interesting.

The Comet 51s (it is the cruiser racer version) was chosen probably because the designer (Vallicelli) is one of the authors of that study (he is also the designer of the Comet 38s and the Comet 41s).

The A mast with that sail configuration gives marginally better results but it will be as versatile in what regards reefing maintaining the boat ballance? In the end I believe that theoretical studies regarding boat performance should be validated by race results. It is in top level prototype racing, that cars and boats test the validity of theoretical advantages regarding performance...and I haven't seen nobody using an A mast and that configuration or at least having positive results with it.

There are series, like the mini series were almost all is allowed and I believe a mast like that too. Probably also on the IMOCA class (Open 60's) and without any doubt it is allowed on the maxi open racing trimarans (where everything is allowed) that chase records.

I believe the fact nobody using it is meaningful regarding its drawbacks that are probably related with the versatility of sail configurations and sail boat balance on the diverse configurations.
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Old 06-11-2016, 15:00   #273
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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In the end I believe that theoretical studies regarding boat performance should be validated by race results.
Yes. In the recent NSW Lake Macquarie single handed regatta the MOTHS got to race in proximity with the A-CATS.

Whilst the top speed of the A-Cats is getting better , the MOTHS can still sail rings around them on a race course, because of their their consistent foiling. Every time the A-Cats touched down they lost out big time.

Only the race track shows the full picture.
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Old 06-11-2016, 16:53   #274
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Remember something called a Hepplewhite sheet release back in '70's. Pendulum mechanism that somehow opened a cleat upon excess heeling. Lost to the fog of time?
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:57   #275
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Ideas lost

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Remember something called a Hepplewhite sheet release back in '70's. Pendulum mechanism that somehow opened a cleat upon excess heeling. Lost to the fog of time?
Things happen like that in our boating world, particularly if they don't reach 'production status',...which a lot do NOT either because of total market size or limited applications at the time of their introduction.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:17   #276
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Summary of that Test

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Interesting.

The A mast with that sail configuration gives marginally better results but it will be as versatile in what regards reefing maintaining the boat balance?

In the end I believe that theoretical studies regarding boat performance should be validated by race results. It is in top level prototype racing, that cars and boats test the validity of theoretical advantages regarding performance...and I haven't seen nobody using an A mast and that configuration or at least having positive results with it.


I believe the fact nobody using it is meaningful regarding its drawbacks that are probably related with the versatility of sail configurations and sail boat balance on the diverse configurations.
First off, here is another summary of the results I abbreviated:

Wind tunnel and CFD investigation of unconventional aftmast rigs
INTERESTING RESULTS
I'm going to summarize some of this paper here in case it should be taken down, or disappear from the web, as many things tend to do nowadays.

ABSTRACT
This paper presents research activities carried out by the authors to investigate aerodynamic behavior of several unconventional sailplans,... in comparison to the sloop traditional solution. In particular an 'A-shaped' mast placed in the stern area of the yacht has been considered in single-jib and double-jib configurations. Wind Tunnel tests and performance prediction analyses have been performed in order to compare different configurations.

...a most interesting solution, including major potential development, appears to be the one configured on an “A” shaped mast, placed in the stern area of the yacht. In this way, what was the mainsail is now transformed into another jib (in the double jibs configuration) or even completely removed (single jib configuration).

....Many attempts to reduce drawbacks of aerodynamic interference of the mast on sails, both in sloops and in multiple mast sailplans, have been made in the past. On the experimental yacht Amoco Procyon by O. Harken
.....
(BE note: They were apparently quite knowledgeable about the Procyon rig, and several others, but made no mention of my numerous postings on the subject of aftmast?)

So far the purpose of this research, conducted by a cooperation between Mechanics Department of Politecnico di Milano and IDEA Department of Facoltà di Architettura di Pescara, was to compare through wind-tunnel tests, a traditional sloop sail plan with a (similarly sized) “A” shaped stern mast sail plan, both in the single-jib and the double-jib configuration.



Two complete scaled models for both single rigged yacht and traditional sloop yacht have been built and tested in the Politecnico di Milano Twisted Flow Wind Tunnel.
The yacht model, consisting of yacht hull body (above the waterline) with deck, mast, rigging and sails, is mounted on a six component balance, which is fitted on the turntable of the wind tunnel. The turntable is automatically operated from the control room enabling a 360° range of headings. In order to correlate force measurement readings and the sail shape and in order to provide input data for CFD calculations, an in-house photogrammetric measuring system has been developed to recover flying shapes during tests.

The traditional sloop yacht rig used as a reference is a Comet 51’a Vallicelli Yacht Design & Co 51 feet IMS cruiser-racer sailing yacht, winner of 2007 IMS Italian Championship.
Wind tunnel tests were performed using a 1:10 scaled model of this yacht where a mainsail with the maximum IMS rule allowed roach and 100% non overlapping jib have been used.














Apparent wind angles were chosen to be 22°, 27°, 32° and 42° which cover the upwind range. Tests were conducted in upright condition. For each apparent wind angle tested the first task was to determine the maximum driving force potentially achievable At the same time the influence of the sails trimming changes was observed using the data acquisition program that visualizes the forces acting on yacht model in real time.

At the end, some runs were performed on the bare hull and rigging (without sails) for both yacht models at different apparent wind angles and in different heeling conditions in order to measure windage. These values are subtracted from each of the measured data points in order to produce the sail force coefficients.


From a pure aerodynamic point of view the relative performance of different rigs can be compared by comparing the driving force at similar apparent wind
angles and heeling moment. From these figures unconventional rigs seem to perform better than the standard sloop configuration.

As can be seen at closer AWA unconventional solutions are better than the standard sloop and in particular the two jib configuration with overlap seems to be able to produce higher driving force (at dynamic pressure =1) at the same heeling moment.

As can be seen unconventional configurations have aerodynamic centre of effort which are lower than the standard sloop and in particular the two jibs without overlap sailplan has the lowest values.

In order to gain further understanding of the sailplans aerodynamic behavior numerical simulations have been carried out using RANS method.

For each design scenario performance prediction have been carried out in 4-20 Knots true wind speed. Figure 24 shows a comparison in terms of optimal VMG in close hauled condition between standard sloop and
unconventional rig with reference to both single and double jib configurations. In particular figure 24 refers to full scale case with the same sails tested in the scaled model.

The results obtained confirm that the double jib configuration performance is better than the standard sloop up to 10 knots TWS, while the single jib
performance is pretty similar to sloop configuration. In windier conditions all the unconventional rig solution are faster and in particular the double jib with overlap gives the best performance.

CONCLUSIONS
In the present paper an unconventional rig has been investigated in comparison with a standard sloop rig by means of wind tunnel tests. The traditional sloop yacht rig used as a reference is a Comet 51’a Vallicelli Yacht Design & Co 51 feet IMS cruiser-racer. Several unconventional configurations have been tested, all characterised by an “A” shaped stern mast without mainsail in single-jib and double-jib configurations. Aerodynamic data available from experiments have been used to perform some performance prediction at full scale by means of a VPP code.

Both experimental tests and VPP calculation show that the double jib
configuration with overlap gives the best performance and also the same configuration without overlap gives better results in comparison with the standard sloop solution.


Numerical investigation have been carried out using RANS simulation in order to better understand the aerodynamic differences resulting from the experimental tests. Simulation results put in evidence a slat effect in the overlapping jibs configuration leading to more attached flow on the aft jib allowing for an higher pressure drop on the sailplan.



Yes they are not 'real world testing, but they were pretty comprehensive as for as simulated test go.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:32   #277
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Race Boats vs Cruising Boats

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The A mast with that sail configuration gives marginally better results but it will be as versatile in what regards reefing maintaining the boat ballance?

In the end I believe that theoretical studies regarding boat performance should be validated by race results. It is in top level prototype racing, that cars and boats test the validity of theoretical advantages regarding performance...and I haven't seen nobody using an A mast and that configuration or at least having positive results with it.

I believe the fact nobody using it is meaningful regarding its drawbacks that are probably related with the versatility of sail configurations and sail boat balance on the diverse configurations.
Why is it that everyone feels the need to evaluate new rig ides just based upon RACE boats?? (are all the cruising guys going to adopt foils because they are the hottest new thing in racing, or some of the new sail designs, etc) often cruisers need something different,...like a good old ketch rig that has been all but forgotten.

Let me relay a little personal experience of mine fro about a week ago:

Ppalu sailing trip
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland
Going sailing on Ppalu tomorrow. Boat has been in St Augustine the last few weeks, and is now headed down to her 'northern anchorage' in the Daytona area.

Hoping for good winds for this powerful ketch rig (only ketch rig Spronk built as I understand it).

And I think you are correct Richard, largest and fastest of her time.


We finally got out of the inlet at St Augustine on Sat morning. Turned south towards Daytona and made it on one tack.

We put up her full sail ketch rig and sailed very relaxed at 8-11 knots on a close reach. The winds started somewhere around 10-15 knots out of the east and increased to 17-22 knots by the afternoon. (we did not have wind measurement instruments, so these are estimates of mine and the skipper/owner Randy West.
Our speeds were derived via hand held GPS.

We experience a considerable ocean swell on our beam as a result of the wind having blown all night and day the day before. The swell got bigger as we approached the inlet at Ponce. We ended up surfing in a sizable swell. In fact Randy West who grew up in this area commented it was one of the largest he had ever tried to navigate thru.

Its been awhile since I've been out on a big multihull (Ppalu is 75 feet). Some of my thoughts on such designs for aging sailors have been fully reinforced:

1) The ketch rig is a godsend. There were 3 of us on the boat,...all over 55 years of age. Handling that mainsail was a chore, and I could just imagine trying to do it any shorter-handed, and in much heavier winds. Then I thought about this vessel being rigged as a sloop....WOW just that much more difficult. Even as a ketch the main mast is 63 foot tall. As a sloop it might have been 80 plus.

The mainsail was a 'stack pack' arrangement with some laze jacks. When dropping it prior to surfing in the inlet it did not what to just drop into the stack pack,...but rather this rather big heavy sail wanted to flake out over the boom and impede our view forward to help negotiate the waves we were going to surf in. It would not have been a one-person job!

Even the non-overlapping jib was a heavy sail, even while constructed of modern materials.

The mizzen was a great sail to maintain balance. We barely had to touch the wheel to keep her on course, while sailing thru a good size ocean swell. (we did not expend a lot of extra energy on tweaking the sails for max drive).

Then we had to put those sails away in the bags and covers once we were at dock. That took at least another hour, with 2 people.

It all went to reinforce my beliefs in my all-furling single-masted ketch sail plan.

Ketch Rigged Catamaran, Chris White

Deketchification of America

Aftmast rigs???

Overlapping Genoa and all-furling rig
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:37   #278
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Sailing Challenge

It all went to reinforce my beliefs in my all-furling single-masted ketch sail plan.

Sailing Challenge
I recently caught up with an old friend who skippered Olaf Harken's unusual vessel Procyon for its first few years. I showed him a model of my 'single-masted ketch' concept, and then just the other day I sent him a copy of this 'sailing challenge' I had issued to a few naysayers in the past.

You know I can still imagine sailing a big 65-foot catamaran with this mastaft (single-masted ketch) rig right off the mooring, and back to the mooring, without the engine, by myself, with so little effort that I might take it out having only a few spare hours to kill, or for just a carefree daysail.

I wouldn’t have to uncover any sails, nor recover them when I returned to port. I'd likely start out with just unrolling that central 'mainstaysail' then add in more sail area as needed.

I would be less concerned with reefing by myself if the wind were to really come up. If I were short-handed at sea, I would have many of the benefits of a ketch rig, without the necessity of slab reefing the main and mizzen sails of the traditional ketch rig. I'd be in a constant state of helm balance as I could tweak the mizzen sail for that.

That about sums it up. I would like a 65 foot cat that I could take sailing by myself, and that might even be easier than a beach cat. Try hoisting a full batten mainsail on a 65 footer by yourself, or even a 40 footer. Most folks over 50 will have second thoughts, or will just unfurl the jib and forget about hoisting that traditional MAIN sail.

I'm 65 (now 73), and I could sail this 65 foot cat by myself with this aft mast rig. And with the balance and low power afforded by the smaller 'mainstaysail' I could sail this vessel right off the mooring or maybe right off a side-to-dock slip.


So here's a challenge Mr Naysayer..... Le Mans start. I'll be out sailing before you get the covers off your mainsail, and when we return for the day, I'll be at the bar sipping on a Margarita watching you put away your vessel for the day.


Reply: Randy West is the owner of Ppalu and sent me a reply this morning...
...reminds me of Procyon (an A-frame rig by Olaf Harken),....we would have her sailing before the crew could put away the fenders


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Old 07-11-2016, 06:51   #279
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A-frame rig

Another interesting A-frame rig that the owner is quite happy with
Aftmast rigs??? - Page 24 - Boat Design Forums


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Old 07-11-2016, 07:01   #280
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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It would certainly be much more difficult to maintain forestay tension with the mast stepped so far aft, compared to a more normal rig, particularly those where the mast is raked aft.
That's true, it will be a little more difficult,...requiring some innovation,....BUT not impossible

Dear Phil (pbmaise),
I would ask you to go back to my posting #345, and review just the first portion of my vector analysis.
Rigging Force Review for Aft-Mast or Mast-Aft

Quote:
MASTHEAD
Lets start at the masthead. There is the primary forestay, a backstay, and two shrouds…all rather traditional. I’ve chosen to represent the force in the forestay with a 5cm long vector. Lets say this vector represents 1000 force units, thus each 1cm on the force diagram will represent 200 force units.

At the masthead the forestay force is broken down into two perpendicular forces, the compression load down the mast and the forward pulling force. The fwd force needs to be offset by the aft pull of the backstay. The backstay is at a more shallow angle so it must pull a bit harder to exert its rearward force. ......

.....nothing very unusual....very conventional. The mast is experiencing compression loads from both the forestay and the backstay force components acting in the vertical direction. And it’s doubtful that those compression loads imparted to the mast by the backstay and forestay are much greater than in the case of a purely vertical standing sloop rig mast.


If you were to do the same thing with your configuration: say take a one inch long vector down the direction of the forestay, ...then break this vector down into its two component parts, one down the mast, and one perpendicular to it, pulling the masthead forward. That component that is perpendicular must be offset by an equal force pulling back on the masthead. Draw that somewhat horizontal vector in. Now look how your backstay might produce that backward force (that horizontal vector is one of the two component parts that make up your total backstay vector (load).

I think you will find it is a VERY LARGE load because of your 'shallow angled' backstay(s). That is the reason I incorporated the aft-jumper strut to get a better angle for my masthead backstay to resist the forestay loads. Its a game of angles.

And unlike your quest, I was looking to get the same overall sail area as the sloop rigged boats on a substantially shorter mast.

Please do that little vector analysis I suggested above and tell us what you think then.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:46   #281
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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The capsizing of Pride of Balt was not caused by a 'gust of wind' in the traditional sense. It was a miro-burst.
What is a Microburst?
Micro burst or not it could be capsized by a big gust of wind and some tall ships were normally associated with big seas (not necessarily the case with the micro-burst).

What I was saying is that the stability of a traditional tall ship has more to do with the one of a cat in a sense that almost all will not go back from an angle of 60/75º while a modern sailing boat has the AVS way over 90º and it can be capsized to 90º, or even more and come back. Also a modern sailing boat will be put on his feet by another wave, in a short time, while when a tall ship is capsized at 90º is done, more even if it is rolled.

By the way, I have been already on a micro-burst. The boat was capsized at 90º by the force of the wind (only with the main sail on a 3th reef and the sail lose. Even so it ripped partially the sail out of the rollers and completely shredded the banner). It staid like that for several minutes and then it come back quickly. Not such luck if I was sailing a cat. I don't know the force of the wind but it was something really out of the scale.

Illuminated by lightening the sea did not look the sea, more like a desert with dunes on a sand storm, with sand flying everywhere and making difficult to understand what was sky and desert.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:59   #282
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Re: Race Boats vs Cruising Boats

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Why is it that everyone feels the need to evaluate new rig ides just based upon RACE boats?? ..
That paper was about a better performance. Race boats are about the best possible performance and therefore if there was a real advantage in performance in real sailing conditions , if the A mast offered a better performance, it would be used on race boats, specially the ones that race in real time (Open Classes) and where all kinds of innovation are allowed.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:36   #283
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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That's true, it will be a little more difficult,...requiring some innovation,....BUT not impossible
Yes, more difficult. And I'd suggest very much more difficult. Move the mast step a little further aft and it'll fall down, no matter how much vector analysis you have around the masthead.

So why dredge up a post of mine from TWO YEARS AGO, then misrepresent it? (I never said there was NO forestay sag, I said the forestay tension was fine even without the main up. Every boat has some forestay sag.)


Trolling? Or just looking for any opportunity to self promote?
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Old 07-11-2016, 15:09   #284
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

I wonder the same, how is that thing aft mast whatever related with this topic?
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Old 07-11-2016, 23:26   #285
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Remember something called a Hepplewhite sheet release back in '70's. Pendulum mechanism that somehow opened a cleat upon excess heeling. Lost to the fog of time?
The Hepplewhite was a neat wadget but among the things that got banned because it used a mercury switch to detect tilt/heel. Terrorists started using that kind of switch in bombs. A abandoned car with explosives wired to one would go off when the tow truck came etc....
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