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Old 31-12-2014, 14:27   #241
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

There are many different types of cruising cats and I think the term condo cat refers to one of the different types.
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Old 31-12-2014, 16:37   #242
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
A collection of individual comparisons if big enough gives meaningful statistic results. That is what statistics are about.

It was an Ocean Explorer 60, it took more two days then the Gunboat 62. If I said a lagoon, I was mistaken, it was another big condo cat. Here you have the results:
https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf
A Marten 49 performance cruiser took about more 10 hours than the bigger Gunboat 62.
You call more than two days staying reasonable close? That Gunboat 62 was Zenyatta, a boat that was skippered by its usual skipper and basic crew that won many regattas. He was quite happy with that result. The boat is proposed for crewed charter and also for crewed racing (they have a basic racing crew and accept more paying crew)
.....
A lagoon 620 took more 4 days than the Gunboat 62 and more 3 and a half then the Marten 49. A small Pogo 40ft performance cruiser was about as fast as that big 60ft cat that arrived at two days from the Gunboat 62.
https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf
After all there was a Lagoon 56 that made it only on 2 more days and something more than that Gunboat 62. Made it in just more 16 hours than that 60ft cat, the Ocean Explorer. This was more than a year ago
Here is the link with the results:

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf

One of the things we can see on the ARC is that condo cats on a downwind run (while cruising for many days) are not much slower than performance cats. In several years there was some Lagoon 450 with a great performance.
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Old 31-12-2014, 16:40   #243
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
There are many different types of cruising cats and I think the term condo cat refers to one of the different types.
Not a pejorative name in what I am concerned: Condo cats by opposition to performance cats and condo because they really have a condo interior, meaning a very big and spacious interior.
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Old 31-12-2014, 16:48   #244
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by catabroker View Post
Quote from Pollux: Regarding cats capsized by big gusts of wind, it seems that you did not get it: It is not frequent but it had happened in several occasions, with light performance cats like yours (more frequent) and even with heavier condo cats. You cannot deny documented reality, it does not make sense.


...I would like to hear about a capsized condo cat. From what I know, every condo cat designer put a rig on the condo cat that will break away if the load gets too much, ie lifting a hull is impossible. And while we are at it, I think the term condo cat is inappropriate, let's call them 'Cruising Catamarans'.
As I have told to you , you just have to look for the relevant post, but since you cannot find it I will repost it for you with links to both stories:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I don't want to go this way but you continue with that strange theory that capsizes only happens on cats when waves are wild and that is simply not true. I have been following through the years boat accidents and capsizes in cats and monohulls and in what regards cats most capsizes happened on normal seas due to very strong gusts. I have heard of many more, some does not come to the net but here you have just some examples on cruising cats:

Here you can see a movie (on the link below) with a capsized big French cruising cat. As you can see the sea is calm:

"Two women and five men were trapped inside the yacht after it upturned suddenly, they managed to escape onto the hull.
The incident unfolded so quickly that the crew were unable to call for help on their radio or release a distress flare."


Video: Seven French sailors rescued off the Isle of Skye - Telegraph

"The craft's emergency beacon raised the alarm at about 21:00 on Wednesday. A sudden gust of wind was thought to have tipped the yacht over.
None of the catamaran's crew was injured and they spent the night at the Fishermen's Mission in Mallaig. The yacht was towed to Skye.
The RNLI said the capsize was so sudden that all onboard the yacht were trapped in the hull.
They managed to escape onto the upturned hull."


BBC News - Seven rescued after yacht capsized off Skye

And here you can see a capsized 47ft crewed charter cat:



As you can see the conditions (3 hours later) were far to constitute any risk to any cruising boat (F7/8) when:

".... The sails were raised halfway and the boat set off again.. at 2:15 p.m., a strong gust blasted the boat and Brenda Smithee said she saw her husband fall overboard. "We tipped over really fast. There was absolutely no time to react," she said....
Weather Service small-craft advisory was in effect with winds of 20 mph to 30 mph.
"

I could post more about similar accidents, some with very experienced sailors but my point is not to say that cats are unsafe neither that these accidents are frequent (in fact they are rare), my point regards only saying that you are wrong when you say that ""capsize will only happen when the waves are wild"". Capsizes on cats, including heavy cruising cats can happen (has reality shows) even in almost flat seas due to very strong unpredictable gusts.
As it was said be someone more knowledgeable than me that story about the rig to fail before the cat capsizes does not makes sense. You should read all the thread.
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Old 31-12-2014, 17:28   #245
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
After all there was a Lagoon 56 that made it only on 2 more days and something more than that Gunboat 62. Made it in just more 16 hours than that 60ft cat, the Ocean Explorer. This was more than a year ago
Here is the link with the results:

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf

One of the things we can see on the ARC is that condo cats on a downwind run (while cruising for many days) are not much slower than performance cats. In several years there was some Lagoon 450 with a great performance.
Which proves my point. Sailed to the same level, and I'm sure no Lagoon owner would be offended by this, a boat like a Gunboat 62 would likely average close to double the daily mileages a Lagoon 56 would.
So clearly, the Lagoon sailors sailed their boat very well, and the Gunboat guys really didn't try very hard at all.

And that's why, if you want to compare performance, the ARC isn't much of an indicator, unless you only look at the racing division. In the cruising divisions, there's no way of knowing who was pushing their boat, and who was taking it easy.

You need to look at REAL race results.
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Old 31-12-2014, 17:59   #246
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

My feeling as well!
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Old 31-12-2014, 18:15   #247
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Which proves my point. Sailed to the same level, and I'm sure no Lagoon owner would be offended by this, a boat like a Gunboat 62 would likely average close to double the daily mileages a Lagoon 56 would.
So clearly, the Lagoon sailors sailed their boat very well, and the Gunboat guys really didn't try very hard at all.

And that's why, if you want to compare performance, the ARC isn't much of an indicator, unless you only look at the racing division. In the cruising divisions, there's no way of knowing who was pushing their boat, and who was taking it easy.

You need to look at REAL race results.
Well, no, i would suspect without looking that a lagoon 56 could average close to 8. I'd be suprised if a gunboat could average 16, especially with a shorthanded cruising crew and all the associated cruising gear. I'm not sure hot shots like Cam Lewis would want to be seen dead on a Lagoon, so finding a skilled crew for the race may be a problem
You tend to find over long distance cruises that the speed averages even for multis are dominated by waterline length.
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Old 31-12-2014, 18:54   #248
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Which proves my point. Sailed to the same level, and I'm sure no Lagoon owner would be offended by this, a boat like a Gunboat 62 would likely average close to double the daily mileages a Lagoon 56 would.
So clearly, the Lagoon sailors sailed their boat very well, and the Gunboat guys really didn't try very hard at all.

And that's why, if you want to compare performance, the ARC isn't much of an indicator, unless you only look at the racing division. In the cruising divisions, there's no way of knowing who was pushing their boat, and who was taking it easy.

You need to look at REAL race results.
No quite the contrary, I am interested in looking at cruising results, not race results. cruising and racing are two different things.

As I have said to you, the 2 and a half day difference to the Gunboat replicates what you can see regarding the other performance cats and the condo cats of about the same size while cruising the ARC. Yes, performance cats are faster but not that faster. There is a difference in sailing a cat at full blast for a while or having it sailed 24 hours after 24 hours by a cruising crew.

For some hours yes you can sail the performance cat much faster but as it was said here, they capsize much more easily than a condo cat so at night or in autopilot, for safety they have to go slower, far away from the boat potential as if it was raced full time by a racing crew, near the limit.

The condo cats don't need to take out so much sail for safety and go proportionally closer to their speed limit and the end the difference on a downwind ride is not that much. That is what the compared performance shows, not only in what refers the Gunflet versus the Lagoon, but generically between performance cats and condo cats, not only in that year but in all years.

Off course if this was an upwind rally, or if they were not on the trade winds that are relatively constant and strong, the story would be different and the performance cats would be much faster than condo cats. But most long range cruising is made on the trade winds.
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Old 31-12-2014, 19:04   #249
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

No Polux, you are absolutely correct. Gunboats are slower. Those boats that are heavier and fatter are faster. Contrary to all known laws of physics and evrey recognised naval architect worth his salt.

Outta here.
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Old 31-12-2014, 19:32   #250
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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No Polux, you are absolutely correct. Gunboats are slower. Those boats that are heavier and fatter are faster. Contrary to all known laws of physics and evrey recognised naval architect worth his salt.

Outta here.
You need to read what I wrote since you seem to have missed it completely. You guys seem to have a problem with reality, in what regards what one says and in what are the real performance of condo cats and performance cats on the ARC. The results, performances and times of several types of cats on the ARC along years are real.

You should look at them along several years and try to understand why it is that way, instead of saying that it is not like that. You don't discuss reality, we try to understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
After all there was a Lagoon 56 that made it only on 2 more days and something more than that Gunboat 62. Made it in just more 16 hours than that 60ft cat, the Ocean Explorer...
Here is the link with the results:

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf

One of the things we can see on the ARC is that condo cats on a downwind run (while cruising for many days) are not much slower than performance cats.
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Old 31-12-2014, 19:33   #251
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
No Polux, you are absolutely correct. Gunboats are slower. Those boats that are heavier and fatter are faster. Contrary to all known laws of physics and evrey recognised naval architect worth his salt.

Outta here.
To be fair,and objective, you may want to read the Polux post again.

Happy new year to all
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Old 31-12-2014, 21:39   #252
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No quite the contrary, I am interested in looking at cruising results, not race results. cruising and racing are two different things.

As I have said to you, the 2 and a half day difference to the Gunboat replicates what you can see regarding the other performance cats and the condo cats of about the same size while cruising the ARC. Yes, performance cats are faster but not that faster. There is a difference in sailing a cat at full blast for a while or having it sailed 24 hours after 24 hours by a cruising crew.

For some hours yes you can sail the performance cat much faster but as it was said here, they capsize much more easily than a condo cat so at night or in autopilot, for safety they have to go slower, far away from the boat potential as if it was raced full time by a racing crew, near the limit.

.
That's your opinion, but an opinion is all it is. In my opinion, to stay even that close to a Gunboat, a Lagoon would have to be sailed much harder.

And that's the problem with the ARC. Maybe the Gunboat crew pulled all the sails down every night and went to bed. Maybe the Lagoon crew sailed the boat flat out 24 hours a day. Hell, maybe the Gunboat crew were sailing in company with the Lagoon crew, and were going as slow as they could so the Lagoon could keep up....

From just looking at the results you simply can't tell.

That's why race results are more informative. You can at least assume all the crews were making an effort.
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Old 31-12-2014, 22:43   #253
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

So regarding Sand Crabs OP, what happened to Nina? Does anyone know first hand its state or whereabouts?
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:50   #254
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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That's your opinion, but an opinion is all it is. In my opinion, to stay even that close to a Gunboat, a Lagoon would have to be sailed much harder.

And that's the problem with the ARC. Maybe the Gunboat crew pulled all the sails down every night and went to bed. Maybe the Lagoon crew sailed the boat flat out 24 hours a day. Hell, maybe the Gunboat crew were sailing in company with the Lagoon crew, and were going as slow as they could so the Lagoon could keep up....

From just looking at the results you simply can't tell.

That's why race results are more informative. You can at least assume all the crews were making an effort.
Racing is not the same as cruising fast. Most would not care about the performance of a cat drove near the limit all time by a skilled crew, meaning many times near capsize, because they just don't drive their boats like that neither they want too.

All the boats that come ahead on the ARC are very well sailed. The Lagoon 56 did not arrive close to the Gunboat 62 but more then two days and a half after. That Gunboat 62 is a very well known one and does the Caribbean race circuit winning races. It was sailed by the usual racing skipper and by the basic racing crew with some guests. The skipper congratulated himself on another forum by the great passage and the great time they had made on the transat. I don't know about the crew of that Lagoon 56 but obviously the boat was very well sailed.

The Knierim 65 performance monohull cruiser that arrived 4 days before the Gunboat 62 was also very well sailed. The owner uses to race the boat too. The smaller Marten 49 and X50 performance monohulls that arrived 9 hours and 23 hours after the Gunboat 62 were also very well sailed. In fact the boats that arrive first are sailed with good crews on a very sportive way, most would say raced.

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf

https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:14   #255
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Likely another unreliable gizmo that inept skippers would come to rely on rather than being better skippers. Capsizes on typical cruising cats are so rare, and usually the result of being in weather and seas one shouldn't be in, that such a device is not necessary. Very light weight boats are another matter....
2 Hulls Dave
Somehow I missed this subject thread, so just reading thru it.

This posting caught my attention. I might suggest the author go back and read thru the log of the captain,...and then tell us he would say that same thing about weather and seas he shouldn't have been in ??
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