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Old 30-12-2014, 11:15   #226
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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That boat did not shred the sails on this blow (he comes already with a furled shredded front sail) and sailing only on mainsail (look at the movie). When you risk to blow your sails away you reduce sail or take them off, not change sailing position to one where they would be subjected to more force, not less.
I guess that you are right even if I could think of one or two reasons to try to let her run, but to type them out here would significantly stretch the limits of my medication (he kept his sails, boat and crew).
I like reading you and most of the others to and as a neutral messenger
for Sand crab I felt secure in my mostly reading role to post the link he was looking for without be...heck you know?!

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I think it was that boat that beared off at the finish line and he did it to save his last sail. I can't find the link now but I'm sure someone here can.

Flattened for 30 minutes is not good!
Read ya all
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:19   #227
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Sydney to Hobart: Storm delivers final blow to battered fleet | The Mercury

Not good at all, he had to shoot his spinnaker.
The last run he made was to safe his last sails.
It took 'em 35' to get back to the line.

Martin
Don't people normally let the spin halyard run or cut it? I guess if the halyard got tangled in the mast after cutting it you would resort to shooting it.
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:28   #228
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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On normal cruising situations, with a reffed main and a furled front sail all would be much easier and faster: the CG of the sail would be lower as well as the center of efforts and there would not be a big flying spinnaker pulling the boat down.
And what, multihull sailors are too stupid to reef?

Fact is, most multihulls are more easily driven, and more conservatively sailed.

We've seen near 40 knot bullets on our boat under full sail, never lifted a hull, never even looked like it. With 2 or 3 reefs in I don't know how much wind it would take to lift a hull, but it would be extreme.

We've easily sailed away from 50 foot mono's with a reef in our sails while watching the mono carrying full sail and rounding up and laying over several times in succession. We were just cruising along effortlessly.

With mono's you sail as fast as you can all the time. With multi's you don't need to unless you're racing against other multi's.
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Old 30-12-2014, 15:30   #229
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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And what, multihull sailors are too stupid to reef?

Fact is, most multihulls are more easily driven, and more conservatively sailed.

We've seen near 40 knot bullets on our boat under full sail, never lifted a hull, never even looked like it. With 2 or 3 reefs in I don't know how much wind it would take to lift a hull, but it would be extreme.

We've easily sailed away from 50 foot mono's with a reef in our sails while watching the mono carrying full sail and rounding up and laying over several times in succession. We were just cruising along effortlessly.

With mono's you sail as fast as you can all the time. With multi's you don't need to unless you're racing against other multi's.
That's bit extreme, very few mono drivers I know sail as fast as they can, other than in light air of course
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:08   #230
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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And what, multihull sailors are too stupid to reef?

Fact is, most multihulls are more easily driven, and more conservatively sailed.

We've seen near 40 knot bullets on our boat under full sail, never lifted a hull, never even looked like it. With 2 or 3 reefs in I don't know how much wind it would take to lift a hull, but it would be extreme.

We've easily sailed away from 50 foot mono's with a reef in our sails while watching the mono carrying full sail and rounding up and laying over several times in succession. We were just cruising along effortlessly.

With mono's you sail as fast as you can all the time. With multi's you don't need to unless you're racing against other multi's.
I don't know of what you are talking about regarding my quote and why all that bitterness. I was talking about a knock down on a video from the last Sydney Hobart, nothing related with cats.

Sure, you are the best in what regards speed. Pity that in what regards long range cruising the data does not confirm what you say (see results of the last ARCs).

Regarding cats capsized by big gusts of wind, it seems that you did not get it: It is not frequent but it had happened in several occasions, with light performance cats like yours (more frequent) and even with heavier condo cats. You cannot deny documented reality, it does not make sense.
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:55   #231
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Sure, you are the best in what regards speed. Pity that in what regards long range cruising the data does not confirm what you say (see results of the last ARCs)..
44C has the world's oldest sails, I have seen them, they came off Noah's ark. And without knowing what mono you sail provided its under 15 metres, I will still put money on him on a passage to Noumea, new zealand - for example.
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:00   #232
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Don't people normally let the spin halyard run or cut it? I guess if the halyard got tangled in the mast after cutting it you would resort to shooting it.
I couldn't figure that one out either. The only thing I could think of is the halyards and control lines are new and worth more than the kite which may have been too old to carry into the next race. Normally one blows a guy or some other control line to get the boat back up. It is a pain to get the wet sail back on board but I have never heard of someone shooting holes in a sail to right the ship. After thinking about it I wonder if this story is actually true. What's the probability a flare will burn through a sail that's under water?
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:13   #233
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Seems really odd to me that the crew didn't simply blow the guy and turn the thing into a flag, underwater or above.
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Old 30-12-2014, 17:21   #234
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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44C has the world's oldest sails, I have seen them, they came off Noah's ark. And without knowing what mono you sail provided its under 15 metres, I will still put money on him on a passage to Noumea, new zealand - for example.
I have said repetitively that any single particular comparison makes no sense in what regards to collect valid data in what regards boat performances. Statistic evidence is what does provide meaningful data. You have plenty of data regarding thousands of boats (monohulls and multihulls) that made the ARC on the last 10 years, crossing at the same time. That will give you statistically meaningful information.
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:26   #235
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I have said repetitively that any single particular comparison makes no sense in what regards to collect valid data in what regards boat performances. Statistic evidence is what does provide meaningful data. You have plenty of data regarding thousands of boats (monohulls and multihulls) that made the ARC on the last 10 years, crossing at the same time. That will give you statistically meaningful information.
So I take it - you wont take my bet? (and I am reminded of Disraeli's famous quote at this time)
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Old 30-12-2014, 19:44   #236
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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So I take it - you wont take my bet? (and I am reminded of Disraeli's famous quote at this time)
What bet are you talking about? If you want to have information regarding how cats and monohull perform regarding extensive cruising look at statistic meaningful information. Plenty of it.
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Old 30-12-2014, 20:46   #237
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I have said repetitively that any single particular comparison makes no sense in what regards to collect valid data in what regards boat performances. Statistic evidence is what does provide meaningful data. You have plenty of data regarding thousands of boats (monohulls and multihulls) that made the ARC on the last 10 years, crossing at the same time. That will give you statistically meaningful information.
The ARC is simply a collection of individual comparisons.

It's not really a race. So some will be racing, and some will be cruising. Some enter just for the feeling of safety of cruising in company.

If you want to compare boat speeds, you need to look at the results of proper races. Brisbane - Gladstone, or Darwin - Ambon for instance.

In fact, one example you cite proves this - a 50 something Lagoon staying reasonably close to a 62 Gunboat. If both boats were sailed to the same level, there's simply no way that could happen.
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Old 31-12-2014, 01:49   #238
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

You need to give away sailing your oram at 10 knots with those crappy old sales 44c and buy a lagoon or even better a mono so you can go faster. Cause thats what the ARC stats tell us.
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Old 31-12-2014, 13:38   #239
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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The ARC is simply a collection of individual comparisons.
...
In fact, one example you cite proves this - a 50 something Lagoon staying reasonably close to a 62 Gunboat. If both boats were sailed to the same level, there's simply no way that could happen.
A collection of individual comparisons if big enough gives meaningful statistic results. That is what statistics are about.

It was an Ocean Explorer 60, it took more two days then the Gunboat 62. If I said a lagoon, I was mistaken, it was another big condo cat. Here you have the results:
https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf
A Marten 49 performance cruiser took about more 10 hours than the bigger Gunboat 62.
You call more than two days staying reasonable close? That Gunboat 62 was Zenyatta, a boat that was skippered by its usual skipper and basic crew that won many regattas. He was quite happy with that result. The boat is proposed for crewed charter and also for crewed racing (they have a basic racing crew and accept more paying crew)

A lagoon 620 took more 4 days than the Gunboat 62 and more 3 and a half then the Marten 49. A small Pogo 40ft performance cruiser was about as fast as that big 60ft cat that arrived at two days from the Gunboat 62.
https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...s%20211213.pdf
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Old 31-12-2014, 14:20   #240
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Quote from Pollux: Regarding cats capsized by big gusts of wind, it seems that you did not get it: It is not frequent but it had happened in several occasions, with light performance cats like yours (more frequent) and even with heavier condo cats. You cannot deny documented reality, it does not make sense.


...I would like to hear about a capsized condo cat. From what I know, every condo cat designer put a rig on the condo cat that will break away if the load gets too much, ie lifting a hull is impossible. And while we are at it, I think the term condo cat is inappropriate, let's call them 'Cruising Catamarans'.
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