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Old 29-12-2014, 13:55   #211
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

I understand what Polux was saying- that a properly prepared mono who broaches with wind will pop back up. Will that wind tip a cat completely over? Don't know. Never seen a condo cat turn turtle. Seen plenty on monos on their side however, and if properly prepared, it can be a non-event. It can be a mess too however.
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:09   #212
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I understand what Polux was saying- that a properly prepared mono who broaches with wind will pop back up. Will that wind tip a cat completely over? Don't know. Never seen a condo cat turn turtle. Seen plenty on monos on their side however, and if properly prepared, it can be a non-event. It can be a mess too however.

Earlier on I mentioned that I'd been in the same place, where gusting winds had caused the classic out-of-control "round up and lie down" in our mono, and stronger winds (by about 10 knots) had been a complete non-event in our cat.
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Old 29-12-2014, 14:52   #213
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

FWIW - 2010, The skipper of a racing catamaran told yesterday how he spent six hours clinging to the capsized hull of his British-owned yacht fearing he had lost two of his crew in the Atlantic.

Ben Jones, 29, said the Spirit Of Antigua had been flipped by a freak gust of wind 120 miles from the coast of Brittany.

Ironically the boat is owned by British yachtsman Tony Bullimore, who famously capsized himself off the coast of Antartica in 1997. Bullimore was not on board last night.

Ben Jones, catamaran skipper, tells of terrifying six-hour ordeal after capsizing in the Atlantic | Daily Mail Online
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Old 29-12-2014, 18:53   #214
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Polux: It is very hard to take you seriously when you claim that any event that would dip the top of the mast underwater is just shook off and no big deal.

We aren't talking about a sunfish here. If you are extremely lucky, there are only be some bruises and a mess to clean up. Odds are there will be a variety of damage (both to the rigging and to internal components of the boat) and some moderate injuries. There is a real potential for demasting and downflooding due to open hatches or other damage that can take the boat to the bottom.
Maybe the Bavaria 36 is a very good sailboat or maybe I had just the boat prepared for it. I had saw something black approaching fast on the radar, furled the front sail, took the third reef on the main, put my daughter inside, closed the boat (I always sail with all the others hatches closed). I was already with the harness on (as always at night) and waited.
No damages except a third reefed sail ripped off from the mast and a shredded banner, no bruises, not even on my daughter. The big waves come only after the big wind, with the boat already on its feet. Scary but nothing more and even if I had the boom on the water (open mainsheet) the top of the mast did not hit the water. The boat probably went to 90º and then stay at that heeling angle or close for several minutes, the time it took the weird wind to disappear.
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Old 30-12-2014, 02:14   #215
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

So we have
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
....A 90º knock down by wind is no big deal and I can assure that no lockers or any significant stuff went out of place. ....
to
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a third reefed sail ripped off from the mast and a shredded banner,
Bit of a change there - from no big deal to loss of main sail?
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Old 30-12-2014, 04:12   #216
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

I don't know why some are beating up on Paolo for stating facts. It's obvious to anyone that a twin hull boat angle of maximum stability is when it is inverted and a mono is the other way around (so long as both boats have all their rigging and keel). So what? All boats can capsize and the conditions under which it happens will vary for different types. The lesson the designer was trying to make is that we should all know there is the possibility for capsize. Once you think it is not possible is when bad things are more likely to happen. So don't stick your head in the sand and think "it can't happen to my boat" because it can.
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Old 30-12-2014, 07:02   #217
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

I am a novice sailor now (and boatless) but used to do it more often. So you guys know more than me.

But a point was made that a mono will always pop back up and this is not always true. In this years Sidney to Hobart race one entry was flattened for about a half an hour and the only way they got it righted was by firing the flare gun repeatedly to shoot holes in the sail so the water would drain out. I think it was that boat that beared off at the finish line and he did it to save his last sail. I can't find the link now but I'm sure someone here can.

Flattened for 30 minutes is not good!
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Old 30-12-2014, 08:44   #218
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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...
Bit of a change there - from no big deal to loss of main sail?
Not a normal 90º knock down due to the unusual hurricane force of the wind.
On the last Sydney Hobarth, near the finish (for the slower boats) there was a situation of fierce gusts and many boats were knocked out more than once without any causality, no mast lost, some with damaged sails. Not a problem for boat or crew safety.

Damaging a sail is not a big deal in what regards boat or personal safety. I had damaged sails in less demanding situations (f8)....mostly by my fault, I should add.
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Old 30-12-2014, 08:57   #219
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I am a novice sailor now (and boatless) but used to do it more often. So you guys know more than me.

But a point was made that a mono will always pop back up and this is not always true. In this years Sidney to Hobart race one entry was flattened for about a half an hour and the only way they got it righted was by firing the flare gun repeatedly to shoot holes in the sail so the water would drain out. I think it was that boat that beared off at the finish line and he did it to save his last sail. I can't find the link now but I'm sure someone here can.

Flattened for 30 minutes is not good!
Sydney to Hobart: Storm delivers final blow to battered fleet | The Mercury

Not good at all, he had to shoot his spinnaker.
The last run he made was to safe his last sails.
It took 'em 35' to get back to the line.

Martin
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:15   #220
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I am a novice sailor now (and boatless) but used to do it more often. So you guys know more than me.

But a point was made that a mono will always pop back up and this is not always true. In this years Sidney to Hobart race one entry was flattened for about a half an hour and the only way they got it righted was by firing the flare gun repeatedly to shoot holes in the sail so the water would drain out. I think it was that boat that beared off at the finish line and he did it to save his last sail. I can't find the link now but I'm sure someone here can.

Flattened for 30 minutes is not good!
Well, they got up didn't they? with no injured crew or damaged that could put the crew or boat in jeopardy.

That was nothing compared to laying flat in the water in the dark. “We laid on our side for probably 30 minutes, which was pretty distressing,” Newbold said.

“No one went in the water, but we couldn’t get the boat up.
“We had to fire flares into the kite to punch holes in it so we could get back up.
“So we fired three flares into it and it let the boat back up.”

Sydney to Hobart: Storm delivers final blow to battered fleet | The Mercury

Obliviously when I said that a boat would pop up immediately after the gust I was not referring to raising along with it a huge spinnaker full of water.

Even running a huge amount of sails, including a kite and full mains sail, that would be completely out of question with a boat cruising, the normal situation is this one:

On normal cruising situations, with a reffed main and a furled front sail all would be much easier and faster: the CG of the sail would be lower as well as the center of efforts and there would not be a big flying spinnaker pulling the boat down.
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:30   #221
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Sydney to Hobart: Storm delivers final blow to battered fleet | The Mercury

Not good at all, he had to shoot his spinnaker.
The last run he made was to safe his last sails.
It took 'em 35' to get back to the line.

Martin
I saw the movie (on your link) and i did not understood that story of turning back to save the sails. The water was flat, just wind, they were coming with what in my boat would be a 2th reef and storm jib when they where hit by a much stronger wind. Why have they not open the main, turned to the wind controlling the boat with the jib, take out the main (if they had not another reef) and continue only under storm Jib? They would not point as higher but on a boat like that they could still make good upwind VMG. Anybody understood why they went away?
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:38   #222
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Safety is all about ensuring that the degraded system fails gracefully. Arguments about design metrics is pointless without reference to in service statistics or engineering analysis.

As an engineer I don't aim for design perfection of any single parameter. I take a system and system of systems view. Failures in one system should be loosely coupled to other systems. Failures shoukdn't cascade from system to system. Catastrophic failures should also be considered in terms of redundancy.

We can learn much from failures if we listen. Unfortunately we humans rarely learn without experiencing failure ourselves.

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Old 30-12-2014, 09:57   #223
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

It seems he fared better then the boat behind him in this picture.

That's maybe why. I wasn't there but it seems it blowed like stink (enough to shred sails).
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Old 30-12-2014, 10:00   #224
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

^^^
Maybe it blew

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Old 30-12-2014, 10:17   #225
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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It seems he fared better then the boat behind him in this picture.

That's maybe why. I wasn't there but it seems it blowed like stink (enough to shred sails).
Martin
That boat did not shred the sails on this blow (he comes already with a furled shredded front sail) and sailing only on mainsail (look at the movie). When you risk to blow your sails away you reduce sail or take them off, not change sailing position to one where they would be subjected to more force, not less.
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