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Old 28-12-2014, 13:30   #181
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Having deliveried some condo cats across the pond, i can say is really hard to lift a hull in those multis, even in moderate gales, i cant say is imposible but is not something you need to worry about if you take precautions, my bet is most flips ocurr due wave and wind interaction in really hard conditions with plenty of canvas up, thats it, the rig dont fall if a hull start to lift up unless you have the shrouds in bad condition, most condo cats cap shrouds are strong enough to lift a hull without break it. Again is a rare ocurrence and usually due poor decisions ....
You should look back on the thread. I had posted some cases about condo cats being capsized only by big gusts on seas without considerable waves. I have heard of more. Not frequent but it had happened and that means it can happen.
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Old 28-12-2014, 13:39   #182
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
My own cat is supposed to be designed that the rig fails before the cat tips. Not sure how accurate that statement is or whether my rig shall fall over when I am getting enthusiastic.
I sincerly hope that this is not true, and I'm guessing since you have not lost the rig, it is not. Most likely an urban legend. The reason is two fold.

1. Someday you will need to beat off a lee shore, and for that you will need all of the power you can muster. I sincerely doubt that a rig designed to fail before the capsize point could do that, because...

2. The rig must be designed with a safety factor, based on dynamic loading, or it will fail from fatigue when driven hard. While this does not need to be the 100% load factor, since that would not be endured for too many cycles, but that is a logical starting point. My boat has ~ 2:1 safety factor (depending on cruising load and point of sail) for capsize by wind leverage alone, and I doubt many are any less. Under normal sailing loads, of course, the safety factor is far larger, since it is very rare for a cruising cat to push beyond ~ 30% of capsize load before reefing.

So if the rig fails before capsize, that was old rigging, not design. And, in fact, we see capsizes, not dismastings. To reliably break before capsize I would need beach cat rigging weight, which would fail in no time at all.

I've also heard it said that the sails would blow out first. Actually, unless the sails are very poorly made indeed, they will not even be strained at that point. Sure folks have blown out old sails; they had, perhaps, only 20% of their new strength remaining.

How about angle of heel as a release point? No, the angle required to get a hull up on flat water is less than the angle reached coming off big waves.

---

I'm sure it is possible to automate capsize control, but it will take a well programmed computer.
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Old 28-12-2014, 15:32   #183
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
....

So if the rig fails before capsize, that was old rigging, not design. And, in fact, we see capsizes, not dismastings. To reliably break before capsize I would need beach cat rigging weight, which would fail in no time at all.

I've also heard it said that the sails would blow out first. Actually, unless the sails are very poorly made indeed, they will not even be strained at that point. Sure folks have blown out old sails; they had, perhaps, only 20% of their new strength remaining.

How about angle of heel as a release point? No, the angle required to get a hull up on flat water is less than the angle reached coming off big waves.

---

I'm sure it is possible to automate capsize control, but it will take a well programmed computer.
Nice to hear some sensible talk by a Cat owner. Regarding the automate capsize control I know that on trimarans used by solo racers those devices has been developed and perfected over the years and in most situations they work but a trimaran can take more heel without taking serious risks while on a cat the lesser heel angle as it is reached Max RM makes the work of such a device more dificult.
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Old 28-12-2014, 16:04   #184
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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You should look back on the thread. I had posted some cases about condo cats being capsized only by big gusts on seas without considerable waves. I have heard of more. Not frequent but it had happened and that means it can happen.
A lot of things can happen. We've all "heard" about really scary stuff. Some worrisome, most not.

Mr. Polux, I've concluded you have a phobia about catamaran capsizes. Hopefully, I'm wrong. Would you like to go on an offshore passage with me? Confront your demons. We won't get any where close to flying a hull, much less capsize. Promise.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 28-12-2014, 16:26   #185
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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A lot of things can happen. We've all "heard" about really scary stuff. Some worrisome, most not.

Mr. Polux, I've concluded you have a phobia about catamaran capsizes. Hopefully, I'm wrong. Would you like to go on an offshore passage with me? Confront your demons. We won't get any where close to flying a hull, much less capsize. Promise.

2 Hulls Dave
Because I try to be accurate you say that I have a phobia about catamaran capsizes? Maybe you did not read that I have said repeatedly that cruising catamarans capsizes are a very rare event? I was only talking about capsizes due to strong gusts and without relevant wave intervention and when I was referring to heard about (besides the well documented two that I posted), I was referring only to those related with wind big gusts. I have heard also about capsizes in bad weather with wind and wave intervention but I was not talking about those.

But you are right, properly my bad English, by heard about I was reefering to have read first hand information published on nautical magazines about those capsizes, not anything unsubstantiated.

Regarding the ones caused only by strong gusts I remember one some years ago that shocked all French Nautical community: a very experienced skipper that with good weather and if I remember correctly with about 20K wind (average) was capsized on coastal navigation on a big cat, rounding a cape, by an unexpected huge gust of wind. He was waiting for it, he knew the cape and the region and was expecting gusts of wind, having reefed the boat but nothing could have prepared him for the ferociousness of that gust, much more powerful than what he had experienced before on that place.
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Old 28-12-2014, 16:32   #186
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You should look back on the thread. I had posted some cases about condo cats being capsized only by big gusts on seas without considerable waves. I have heard of more. Not frequent but it had happened and that means it can happen.


I see it, but i stand with my quote, is really dificult to lift a hull in a médium size production multi if they take precautions, reef early reef for the gust..
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Old 28-12-2014, 16:42   #187
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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I see it, but i stand with my quote, is really dificult to lift a hull in a médium size production multi if they take precautions, reef early reef for the gust..
Yes, I agree, that's why I said that it is a very rare event but rare does not mean that does not happen. Even rarer in hurricane force winds there are known cases of condo cats capsized at anchor (without any sail out) just by wind. Again a very rare event, even more rare than cats capsized by huge gusts of wind.
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Old 28-12-2014, 16:45   #188
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
I see it, but i stand with my quote, is really dificult to lift a hull in a médium size production multi if they take precautions, reef early reef for the gust..
I'll quibble just a bit. I'd say it's damn difficult to lift a hull in damn near all cruising cats EVEN IF YOU TRY TO in HARSHER CONDITIONS than smart skippers are out in ANYWAY!!

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Old 28-12-2014, 16:53   #189
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You should look back on the thread. I had posted some cases about condo cats being capsized only by big gusts on seas without considerable waves. I have heard of more. Not frequent but it had happened and that means it can happen.

Your probably right. Then again the Pride Of Baltimore II, a 90' monohull was capsized and sank in a matter of a few minutes under the same conditions.
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Old 28-12-2014, 17:33   #190
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Your probably right. Then again the Pride Of Baltimore II, a 90' monohull was capsized and sank in a matter of a few minutes under the same conditions.
I really don't understand the purpose of your post. Yes the Pride of Baltimore or any tall ship for that matter can be, like a cat, capsized by a huge gust of wind and through the History some where and for the same reason: Like a cat those old designs don't have the ability to recover from a knock down and will capsize.

All RCD certified class A monohulls will be able to recover from a knock down and that includes practically all cruising monohulls with more than 33ft. Many smaller class B boats will be able to do that also.

So, can you explain me what a 200 year designed tall ship stability has to do with this thread?
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Old 28-12-2014, 17:45   #191
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Think about it, I'm sure it will come to you.
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Old 28-12-2014, 17:45   #192
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

[QUOTE=Polux;1707878

Too much wind on a modern mono, gusting or not, is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.[/QUOTE]

The above is said in jest right?
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Old 28-12-2014, 17:57   #193
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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The above is said in jest right?
Yes it is just right: too much wind on a modern offshore monohull, gusting or not (provided that there are no breaking waves involved) is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.

But you surely know that, wind alone cannot capsize a modern monohull. A gust can knock him down but it will raise up after it.
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Old 28-12-2014, 19:18   #194
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Yes it is just right: too much wind on a modern offshore monohull, gusting or not (provided that there are no breaking waves involved) is never a dangerous situation. Frightening can be, for an inexperienced sailor.

But you surely know that, wind alone cannot capsize a modern monohull. A gust can knock him down but it will raise up after it.

You have now entered lala land!
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Old 28-12-2014, 19:30   #195
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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You have now entered lala land!
When someone does not agree with something that is cleared stated it is expected to explain why. lalala is a very weak explanation and not a credible one
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