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Old 26-12-2014, 20:57   #166
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

People, may I remind you that on this Forum we are obliged to address one another with courtesy and respect. Nothing wrong with a good argument, but that does not exclude the other things. There have been complaints and we have had to edit some posts. If it continues in this vein, infractions will start to be issued.
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Old 26-12-2014, 21:14   #167
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
My boat is actually quite simple.
Ok, ok. I have admired your boat in your pictures and a lot is due to hull construction. Duflex is pretty high tech for hull construction compared to most production cats. What does yours displace? I am sure much lighter than 26000 lbs that a lagoon 44 for example displaces.
I am partial to cored hulls when done well for stiffness, lightness, and insulation. Also to daggerboard, centerboard concepts which optimize draft when you need it. Yours have those, right?

In any case, no surprise you were able to beat a poorly sailed production monohull to weather. Not sure this is broadly generalizable if we compare apples to apples (run of the mill production boats).

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Old 27-12-2014, 00:30   #168
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Yes, I have red your post. Can you explain to me where a situation that does not result in overpower can be "quite frightening, and potentially dangerous"???? your words, not mine.
Again, clearly you haven't read the post. Again, and this will be the last time I can be bothered trying to explain it to you, I was talking about ACCIDENTAL GYBES.

ACCIDENTAL GYBES on monohulls can be quite frightening and potentially dangerous.

However with a long traveller as found on many cat's ACCIDENTAL GYBES, are really a non-event. Because even when you have the boom well out, much of that is done by the traveller, and there's not much loose sheet. So in an ACCIDENTAL GYBE the boom isn't free to swing right across the boat and into the opposite shrouds.
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Old 27-12-2014, 00:35   #169
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Ok, ok. I have admired your boat in your pictures and a lot is due to hull construction. Duflex is pretty high tech for hull construction compared to most production cats. What does yours displace? I am sure much lighter than 26000 lbs that a lagoon 44 for example displaces.
I am partial to cored hulls when done well for stiffness, lightness, and insulation. Also to daggerboard, centerboard concepts which optimize draft when you need it. Yours have those, right?

In any case, no surprise you were able to beat a poorly sailed production monohull to weather. Not sure this is broadly generalizable if we compare apples to apples (run of the mill production boats).

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Balsa cored fibreglass doesn't strike me as high tech. But yes, we're quite light.


How do you know the mono was poorly sailed? Because a catamaran was faster to windward? Must have been sailed by complete morons then. Obviously.

Oh yeah there were 3 other mono's, they took even longer than the Bene, and they motored too. Two were heavy displacement ketches, one a 40 foot fibreglass boat of a design I wasn't familiar with.
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Old 27-12-2014, 06:35   #170
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Balsa cored fibreglass doesn't strike me as high tech. But yes, we're quite light.


How do you know the mono was poorly sailed? Because a catamaran was faster to windward? Must have been sailed by complete morons then. Obviously.

Oh yeah there were 3 other mono's, they took even longer than the Bene, and they motored too. Two were heavy displacement ketches, one a 40 foot fibreglass boat of a design I wasn't familiar with.
Well, compared to many current production boats, balsa cored fiberglass is high tech. I assumed poorly sailed because motoring in a perfectly good breeze. But I am also sure that your light cat with daggerboards is much faster than average cat.


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Old 27-12-2014, 06:49   #171
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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While 44 understood what I said, you have missed the point entirely.; It was about fine tuning, not structure.

For example, down wind is the when this does NOT matter. The jib becomes more full, which is good.
Yes off course in what regards fine tuning upwind nothing like a adjustable backstay and that's why racing Pogos have them, even if they are not practical on multihulls. Some racing multihulls use running backstays to improve performance also.

Yes, it seems I missed the point. I agree with you that without a backstay going upwind you need to have the mainsail under tension to provide an adequate sail shape.
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Old 27-12-2014, 14:09   #172
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Wrong and wrong. Yes on a well balanced boat the CG will be on the center of the boat but you forget that most cats, like yours, have a deck house on top of the hulls while on modern designed trimarans the accommodations are low inside the center hull. This obviously lowers the CG.

It can be on the same center line but the CG it is lower and that will increase stability. Having both boats (trimaran and catamaran) the same beam and weight, the one with the lower center of gravity will be the one with more stability.

Regarding beam on cats and trimarans, the two modern cruising trimarans that sell more are the Corsair and the Dragonfly. Do you mind to post a cruising cat with the same Length Beam ratio? I don't know any.

In what concerns answering the question (compared stability between a trimaran and a catamaran), even if some things are obvious, I don't like to take the credit from anybody and this typical stability curve comparing the stability of a 35ft trimaran with the stability of a 35ft catamaran is not mine but from a NA specialized on Multihull designs.
What I said was correct. It depends on the individual boats. You insist on making assumptions. You assume all cat's have bridgedecks, but not all do. You assume every tri is wider than every catamaran, but again, not all are.
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Old 28-12-2014, 09:29   #173
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Okay, here' my two cents. Yeah, the chart says tri's have more stability, but your typical tri is going to have more sail area than the same size cat. In a cruising tri, it is readily apparent when you are overpowered, not so much in a cat. The tri is burying its leeward float, and developing weather helm when it is overpowered. It can be difficult to tell when a cruising cat is overpowered, hence easier to push it too far.

Going downwind, I'd say it's more critical to avoid too much main up in a tri, as it doesn't have as much flotation forward. Also, big beam seas more dangerous in a tri.

Or so it seems to me........


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Old 28-12-2014, 09:53   #174
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Monos, Cats and Tris tend to fail in different ways. If you try and compare them via a single failure methody (ie: chance of capsize), one will look much worse.

But pick another failure method (ie: chance of sinking) and other looks the worst.

Pick onther failure method (ie: pitch pole) and yet another looks worse.

Reality is any of them built and sailed reasonable are reasonably safe.
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Old 28-12-2014, 09:56   #175
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

+1


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Old 28-12-2014, 10:09   #176
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Have to say, as a dyed in the wool cat sailor, that I agree with a lot of what you write. It makes common sense. My own cat is supposed to be designed that the rig fails before the cat tips. Not sure how accurate that statement is or whether my rig shall fall over when I am getting enthusiastic. Hopefully, my U-bolts on the underside of the bridge deck shall never be used - not withstanding we have several tons of bouyancy in the bows and sterns which may also help in the event of a collision. We have twice had collisions at sea - once as the sun was going down when we hit a shipping container in the southern Indian Ocean and the other time we rammed a large (guess about 15ft diameter) steel drum-like item in the North Atlantic. Both times we were a long way from assistance. Neither was a pleasant experience but believe being in a cat saved our bacon. The shipping container split our hull open when one rudder was ripped off. The sealed aft bulkhead saved us that time and led me to install closed cell poured foam in each corner after that.
When we rammed the drum we opened our bows but the closed cell foam didn't allow anything in - we had to cut all the foam out to repair the hull but otherwise we were fine. Still, a capsize is another scary story. We shall continue our practise of putting a reef in at night.
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Old 28-12-2014, 10:23   #177
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Having deliveried some condo cats across the pond, i can say is really hard to lift a hull in those multis, even in moderate gales, i cant say is imposible but is not something you need to worry about if you take precautions, my bet is most flips ocurr due wave and wind interaction in really hard conditions with plenty of canvas up, thats it, the rig dont fall if a hull start to lift up unless you have the shrouds in bad condition, most condo cats cap shrouds are strong enough to lift a hull without break it. Again is a rare ocurrence and usually due poor decisions ....
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Old 28-12-2014, 10:29   #178
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

Condo cat ........like it! Too many of these being flogged into the market and these may ultimately lead to some unfortunate incidents. I know someone shall write and confirm that they have been delivered on their own bottoms from Cape Town to xxxxx and that shall mislead even more susceptable folk being convinced they are safe for a circumnavigation and anything that nature can conjure up (and I am a dedicated multi hull proponent).
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Old 28-12-2014, 12:53   #179
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

SANDCRAB:

You asked a long way back where did Anna go?

I don't think anyone knows where Anna went after she was loaded in Niue. You might be able to find a shipping register somewhere, and if you know when she was loaded, you'll be able to get the ship...and then, maybe the destination. Good luck with your detective work.

We do have some Kiwi members of CF, maybe Matt from Neptune's Gear could find out if she went to Auckland......

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Old 28-12-2014, 13:25   #180
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Re: Capsized Atlantic 57 Salvaged

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Originally Posted by Training Wheels View Post
Okay, here' my two cents. Yeah, the chart says tri's have more stability, but your typical tri is going to have more sail area than the same size cat. In a cruising tri, it is readily apparent when you are overpowered, not so much in a cat. The tri is burying its leeward float, and developing weather helm when it is overpowered. It can be difficult to tell when a cruising cat is overpowered, hence easier to push it too far.

Going downwind, I'd say it's more critical to avoid too much main up in a tri, as it doesn't have as much flotation forward. Also, big beam seas more dangerous in a tri.

Or so it seems to me........
...
In fact regarding stability and the advantages of a tri over a cat in what regards speed and sensibility regarding to understand when the limits are reached and have time to correct limit situations the answer has been done by the type of multihulls that are used as top offshore racers: All trimarans now.

There was a time where there was doubts regarding what was the more adapted boat regarding safety and speed (that are connected) on offshore racing. Not anymore.

Sure, in absolute therms a cat can be as fast or faster then a trimaran and that's why America cup boats are cats but they are sailed on the limit by a huge crew over short distances and most of all, not offshore with big waves.

So, why are cats used more as cruising boats then trimarans? Because they can offer a big platform to make a big house on top and they are easier to built and that diminishes costs.
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