Capsize whilst Motor Sailing ??

[Joli]

My guess about what happened are based on a whole lotta sailing miles.

Care to tell us your opinion "guess" what would flip a Knysna 44 when the wave train was 15 foot?

You can guess about Catty all you want, my opinion is mine.

Originally Posted by Factor

I'm not - My concern with his/Her observations is that I don't know where he/she is coming from as a point of reference, does she/he sail a multi, if so what design - configuration. E.G. A prout Snowgoose owner might very well be highly suspect of a cat that can do more than 5 knots, a Catalac owner might be worried about a boat that is light, an atlantic owner might think that boards are mandatory - etc etc.

Position and perspective are very important to understanding a line of reasoning.

Wow - some extraordinary leaps in logic - You GUESS something and then extrapolate from there. You Start by presuming a particular boat can be blown over then ponder thats cause rigs are getting bigger.

I guess the only thing we agree on is that the it would be interesting to hear from the owner.

[Joli]

Maybe I know more about that then you?

And maybe since the subject is germane. Maybe you can opine what might flip a 44 foot cat?

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I've seen no evidence which would support this statement.

He claims he posts about every single capsize anywhere on earth the instant it happens "so we can learn from them"

I'm wondering exactly what he expects anyone to learn from these incidents? Mono's can sink, cats can capsize, I'm sure everyone already knows that.

[IdoraKeeper]

I am not sure of the merits of Cat verses Mono...I am sure however that any yacht in danger of capsizing could benefit from an increase in the number of modern and expensive anchors installed. There is safety in numbers where anchors are concerned.

Todd

[Sand crab]

I agree with more anchors but really if that boat had more guns then a capsize probably would have never happened. Probably a bunch of whiny ass liberals.

[YADO]

Sand Crab posted, "Probably a bunch of whiny ass liberals".
Sure sounds like whining to me. Whenever I read something like that I'm reminded of a study that showed that conservatives, as children, complained to teachers and "whined" more as little boys. What does that have to do with motor sailing? Nothing, but since you brought it up:
"As kids, liberals had developed close relationships with peers and were rated by their teachers as self-reliant, energetic, impulsive, and resilient. People who were conservative at age 23 had been described by their teachers as easily victimized, easily offended, indecisive, fearful, rigid, inhibited, and vulnerable at age 3. The reason for the difference, the Blocks hypothesized, was that insecure kids most needed the reassurance of tradition and authority, and they found it in conservative politics."

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by YADO

Sand Crab posted, "Probably a bunch of whiny ass liberals".
Sure sounds like whining to me. Whenever I read something like that I'm reminded of a study that showed that conservatives, as children, complained to teachers and "whined" more as little boys. What does that have to do with motor sailing? Nothing, but since you brought it up:
"As kids, liberals had developed close relationships with peers and were rated by their teachers as self-reliant, energetic, impulsive, and resilient. People who were conservative at age 23 had been described by their teachers as easily victimized, easily offended, indecisive, fearful, rigid, inhibited, and vulnerable at age 3. The reason for the difference, the Blocks hypothesized, was that insecure kids most needed the reassurance of tradition and authority, and they found it in conservative politics."

Idora started it with the reference to anchors so I completed it with the guns reference. The 3 things that cause the most controversy are cats vs monos, anchors and guns. It was a JOKE. Did you notice that our posts had no relevence to the issue at hand which was a cat tipping? JEEZ lighten up.

[Palarran]

Regardless of Catty's motivations, it will be interesting, at least for me, to find out what happened. The same as it would be interesting for a mono owner to find out what happened when the keel comes off a boat.

Also, if we are guessing as to Catty's ride, I'll guess neither. Maybe a kayak.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by catty

So that we may learn from this incident, I tried without success to find independent , historical weather observation data for this section of the coast, for the 14th and 15th of June.
Were the conditions as the press reported and from which direction. Does South Africa have a weather department that publishes such data? Can anyone help.

Regards

Here's the satellite image for the evening of the capsize... S.A. Weather and Disaster Information Service, South Africa: SA Weather Satellite Image: 15 June 2011 20h30 SAST It shows a low pressure system south of the area of capsize so there would have been, broadly speaking, strong westerly winds opposing the west going Agulhas Current. A recipe for very nasty conditions. Interestingly, the image from 6 hours earlier http://saweatherobserver.blogspot.co...e-2011_15.html doesn't have the low very well defined so it looks as though it deepened very quickly.

I've only sailed this coast once from Richards Bay round to Cape Town - the opposite direction to what this boat was doing - so I'm no expert, but I do know that they SHOULD have kept well inshore of the current - say at the 50m contour or inside - in these weather conditions. Hopefully one of our South African members can comment further.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by YADO

Sand Crab posted, "Probably a bunch of whiny ass liberals".
Sure sounds like whining to me. Whenever I read something like that I'm reminded of a study that showed that ..."

Yeah.
Anyone can assert anything.
Document that please?

[impi]

We are currently in Simons town and the sea state has been very rough with huge swells and bad weather pulling through.
Discussions in the clubhouse here have been along the lines that a number of vessels planning to go out around the time of the incident decided not to due to sea state.
It's sad this happened although things could have turned out a lot worse.
Once again the NSRI have delivered a successful rescue with limited financial means .... I respect these guys.
Another discussion I had, there was mention of the boat having been unbalanced ???
It's a hot topic here being so close to base but will keep my ear tuned.

[catty]

Originally Posted by impi

We are currently in Simons town and the sea state has been very rough with huge swells and bad weather pulling through.
Discussions in the clubhouse here have been along the lines that a number of vessels planning to go out around the time of the incident decided not to due to sea state.
It's sad this happened although things could have turned out a lot worse.
Once again the NSRI have delivered a successful rescue with limited financial means .... I respect these guys.
Another discussion I had, there was mention of the boat having been unbalanced ???
It's a hot topic here being so close to base but will keep my ear tuned.

Thanks for the insight. Can you elaborate on "unbalanced" ? Was the vessel overloaded? Is there any indication on why they were" motor sailing" apparently downwind in 60 knots.? Were the motors in reverse?

Regards.

[impi]

Just to put a bit of perspective as to sea state on this coast recently - see capsized fishing boat where 2 drowned last month.

http://thegremlin.co.za/knysna-news/...ysna-accident/

This coast line can bring on unusually big seas around this time of year. In an earlier thread I discussed our experience in breaking waves and rollers off Cape Point which also happened around this time of year. One particular wave we were on and which 'closed on us' was literally barreling behind us - we could see into the tunnel and resulted in us sliding sideways as it broke. The wind we experienced was only 47 knts or so but combined with breaking waves and sudden gusts it becomes difficult to read.

I found it was necessary to 'work the throttle' by accelerating and then back it off as the boat climbed the face of the wave because the back of the waves were incredibly steep. If they were motoring into the waves, it could result in the vessel lifting off the crest (most of the hull comes out of the sea) and combined with a sudden gust of wind from the wrong direction ........ Followed by a wave crashing down on top of the boat .....
Speculation from my part, but keeping the hulls in the water as we went over the crest was most on our mind and the angle of the vessel to waves breaking overhead.
What we would've done had we been there at nightfall is Anyones guess.

Made me realise that things can go wrong pretty quickly this time of year and what may be right sailing technique today may be totally wrong tomorrow ..... I really feel sorry for these guys.

[impi]

Originally Posted by catty

Thanks for the insight. Can you elaborate on "unbalanced" ? Was the vessel overloaded? Is there any indication on why they were" motor sailing" apparently downwind in 60 knots.? Were the motors in reverse?

Regards.

Hi catty

I'm afraid there's not much info on that but one fella said they seemed heavy on the bow. I wouldn't put too much into that statement though as I'm not sure where his info comes from ..... The knysna cats have a good seaworthy reputation around here and I know some guys who own them and they have been through heavy seas with them. Only complaints I've heard is the low bridge deck clearance astern. Why they would be running downwind in 60 knts with sail up ..... Anyones guess, but I can vouch for the fact that the seas get so big here that the decision to steer for best angle for wind verses wave direction becomes a decision that changes within seconds ..... It's a continuous battle to have the vessel in the right place at the right time ( which means you are already in the wrong place at the wrong time). Then there's the decision as to weather one bare poles or not ?
Some argue for enough sail to keep power on the nose whilst others argue bare poles ..... Personally I think you have to make the call given the conditions. Perhaps they had a bit of cloth out to keep 'drive' on the vessel, turned downwind to handle wave / swell condition and caught a gust at the wrong time and angle ?
This is also why I said in an earlier thread that I didn't totally agree that it was always a good choice to throw out a drouge or set a sea anchor because the sea state can change hugely and these can limit the ability to manuever the vessel infinite best position which for me was something I had to continuously work at.
However, if they were able to run downwind consistently, I would think that to have had good length warp trailing astern wouldn't be bad.

[impi]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

I guess one should mount the liferaft and EPIRB to the underside of catamarans.

Actually - this is a very valid comment. We carry one on top and the lagoon has one astern low down easily reached incase of a capsize position. I think it would be an idea to install a second epirb there as well or next to the escape hatch window ???
Any ideas on that ??

[delmarrey]

Actually, I was being facetious but sometimes a first thought can be a solution.

About 10 years ago I was seriously looking into Cats (F41) but due to their unavailability and cost in this area I dropped the ambition.
But in Mono's we do all sorts of things to keep stuff in place while in rough seas like screw-down deckplates, securing water and fuel takes to take a rollover, latching drawers and so on. So, it would make sense to do the same for Cats, except with a Cat, one can count on not coming back up vs a rollover.

Mounting safety equipment should be done with the ability to deploy while the Cat is up-side-down as well as right-side-up. Having the EBIRP on a swivel plate back aft so it can float up if it gets flipped and having the liferaft somewhere it can be deployed one way or the other, like hanging off the back deck.

As for the motor sailing, I'm not sure I would have done that in those weather conditions. As Cat owners know, the faster the Cat is going thru the water the less control one has on it's stability. But I only know what I could read of the situation.