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Old 22-02-2014, 15:35   #91
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

[QUOTE Using today's technology, how do you generate that without burning fossil fuels?[/QUOTE]

Don't burn fossil fuel, burn renewable fuel - biodiesel.
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Old 22-02-2014, 16:04   #92
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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[QUOTE Using today's technology, how do you generate that without burning fossil fuels?
Don't burn fossil fuel, burn renewable fuel - biodiesel.[/QUOTE]

Fossil fuel is renewable - it's just a matter of time frames
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Old 22-02-2014, 16:17   #93
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Hi Scarlet;

Like you I am a newbie to cruising and am researching everything, and in particular electric propulsion. From what i have learned, you need to analyse your requirements as a first step. You need to provide enough propulsion for safety ie getting out of an anchoargae in the middle of the night if your anchor drags in 50 knots of wind, or motoring out of a lagoon through the coral pass with 8 knots of current running etc etc.

Then you need to know how big your engines need to be at full throttle. Do not underestimate the windage of cruising cats!

Once you know the size of your electric motors, such as the Torqeedo 40HP (30 kW) Deep Blue, then you need to do a serious energy budget to understand if you can replace the watts you use. At anchor is one situation, and extended motoring is another. For extended motoring such when becalmed, you will need a diesel genset to supply the motor(s) and put amps in the LiFePO4 battery bank at the same time. I would suggest you also plan on putting lots of PV solar AND have a good (quiet & robust) wind generator.

The capitol expenditure will be higher than a diesel engine installation, but then the total cost of ownership (TCO) will get better and better as time goes on and you avoid the fuel and maintenance costs of diesel engines. You can workout where that crossover point will be and see if that matches your cruising style and how many hours per year you would put on diesel engines.

Have a look at this gunboat with full electric system on Youtube ( Moonwave PoerPack - The Catamaran Electric Propulsion System) to get an idea of where electric propulsion is heading. Things are advancing very rapidly!
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Old 22-02-2014, 18:49   #94
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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I do not understand why you are so focussed on the inefficiency of diesel generated electricity ...... for an induction cook top

Solar, wind, batteries for storage and an inverter will work very well for induction.


Rob
Do the math. How many watt/hours to heat a can of campbell's soup? How many watt/amp/hour can expect per day from a solar system on a boat? 200ah @ 12v??? How many solar panels @ 140w each can you fit on boat? 4?? Does not go very far when using electricity for cooking. You don't support a total electric boat without a generator.
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Old 22-02-2014, 20:57   #95
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Jeez, the problems of the North huh ?
I'll never own a multi of the size that creates these dilemmas but if I did I would think the best "available now" green fuel technology would be biodiesel ?
Bio fuels are one of the worst, and potentially economically/environmental disastorous, ideas ever. What the superficial "go green" crowd does not see is the thousands of hectares of jungle that are being cleared for bio fuel related agriculture, the indigenous who are being driven off their lands, and resulting rising basic food costs for millions who were just getting by to begin with. All the above is now happening in Central America.

TANSTAFL (There is No Such Thing as A Free Lunch).
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Old 22-02-2014, 22:01   #96
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Bio fuels are one of the worst, and potentially economically/environmental disastorous, ideas ever. What the superficial "go green" crowd does not see is the thousands of hectares of jungle that are being cleared for bio fuel related agriculture, the indigenous who are being driven off their lands, and resulting rising basic food costs for millions who were just getting by to begin with. All the above is now happening in Central America.

TANSTAFL (There is No Such Thing as A Free Lunch).
Whilst everything above is true if you choose those sources, and from what I have gathered is mostly from the production of ethanol. It does not apply to the recycling of cooking oils from take aways and fast food outlets whose usual disposal channels are to pig feed and the like.
Much of the clearing in Central America is also for beef production to feed the very same fast food industry.
Chucking a dirty green blanket over the whole industry is just as blind as the green fuel policies that are creating that problem.
There are many many issues our societies have to deal with, we each do what we can or not as we see fit.
Energy requirements for boats need high energy densities which as well as being muli-functional biodiesel can supply. I agree, virgin feedstock can create as many or more problems than it solves, but diverting feedstock from an inefficient waste stream is a win.
Some people choose to see everything green as an evil plot to undermine capitalism, some people however have a broader view.
Battery capacity/panel efficiencies still have a ways to go to make a boat energy independent, for the cost of the lithium batteries bank and the panel set, electronics etc you could build a biofuel reactor to service a dozen boats. And the end product can be used in existing motors generators and cookers. I know most will dismiss it as "all too hard" but I'm just putting it out there that there as a real workable solution for those interested enough to look into it.
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Old 22-02-2014, 22:13   #97
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

P.S.
Caribbean island to produce biodiesel from waste oil - Renewable Energy Magazine, at the heart of clean energy journalism
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Old 22-02-2014, 23:33   #98
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Our boat came with a genset. In many areas we've been in in N Europe diesel is easier to come by than propane. We have three UK propane bottles in the locker which used sparingly will do us for about three months (needless to say the US bottles couldn't be filled in the UK and the UK bottles can't be filled in the EU).

We carry 700l (~185 US gal).

To eke the propane out I have no issue running the genset for an hour a day to top up batteries, heat water and to cook with.

We use a halogen oven in preferance to to using our gas oven (Force 10, 3 burner - a badly engineered piece of kit if ever there was one) as it cooks better, is very quick, "self-cleans", is temperature controllable and doesn't turn the boat into a sauna (i.e. pretty much everything the Force 10 isn't).

We also have a microwave which we use in for vegetables rather than boiling or steaming them on the stove top for the same reasons.

Using diesel-produced electricity rather than relying entirely on propane can make sense.
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Old 23-02-2014, 03:54   #99
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Do the math. How many watt/hours to heat a can of campbell's soup? How many watt/amp/hour can expect per day from a solar system on a boat? 200ah @ 12v??? How many solar panels @ 140w each can you fit on boat? 4?? Does not go very far when using electricity for cooking. You don't support a total electric boat without a generator.
Maybe I am mistaken. If so please help me.

I assume you can heat a can of soup with induction in say 4 or 5 minutes at 220*10= 2,2 Kw / 12 = 185 Watt. An inverter draws approx 200 A at 12 volt for the same 4 or 5 minutes to "produce" the same 185 Watt.
On this forum somebody described 6 panels @ 300w (1800 WP) on a Lagoon 450. Enough to fully support a house bank of 1000 Ah. I think you can go far enough with electricity for cooking (using the proper tools like induction and microwave).

I already earlier agreed that with today’s technology you "don't support a total electric boat without a generator". But I hope it is clear that I try to understand why you think you cannot cook electric and thus avoid the use of propane.
Cheers Rob
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Old 23-02-2014, 04:15   #100
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

> I assume you can heat a can of soup with induction in say 4 or 5 minutes at 220*10= 2,2 Kw / 12 = 185 Watt.

2.2KW is about the maximum output of a single element induction cooker (many are only 1.8KW), it''s equivalent to a large "pro" level gas ring (15,000BTU/hr). You can probably heat a can of soup in two to three minutes at half that power level say 1KW - comparable to doing it in a medium sized microwave.
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Old 23-02-2014, 05:03   #101
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Whilst everything above is true if you choose those sources, and from what I have gathered is mostly from the production of ethanol. It does not apply to the recycling of cooking oils from take aways and fast food outlets whose usual disposal channels are to pig feed and the like.
.....
And what fraction of 1% of total biofuel consumption falls into this category?
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Old 23-02-2014, 05:25   #102
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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....doesn't turn the boat into a sauna (i.e. pretty much everything the Force 10 isn't).
...
Another interesting, and simple, product for not turning the boat into sauna (and conserving energy) is the Wonder Bag. Originally created to conserve cooking fuel in poor African villages, I think it should be handy on a boat too: greatly reduce heating of the boat, leave meals cooking while away from boat (snorkeling instead of galley duty), conserve fuel....

Just bought one to try out on the boat this cruising season. Cooked a test meal in it recently works great.

http://nb-wonderbag.com/
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Old 23-02-2014, 05:28   #103
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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That sounds a bit like I'm intentionally opening a can of worms... doesn't it?

...

What do you think? can we do it all electric?
So, Scarlet has this helped settle the argument? ;-)
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Old 23-02-2014, 05:46   #104
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Maybe I am mistaken. If so please help me.

I assume you can heat a can of soup with induction in say 4 or 5 minutes at 220*10= 2,2 Kw / 12 = 185 Watt. An inverter draws approx 200 A at 12 volt for the same 4 or 5 minutes to "produce" the same 185 Watt.
On this forum somebody described 6 panels @ 300w (1800 WP) on a Lagoon 450. Enough to fully support a house bank of 1000 Ah. I think you can go far enough with electricity for cooking (using the proper tools like induction and microwave).

I already earlier agreed that with today’s technology you "don't support a total electric boat without a generator". But I hope it is clear that I try to understand why you think you cannot cook electric and thus avoid the use of propane.
Cheers Rob
6 300w panels is not practical on most boats. Those panels are over 3' wide and 6.5' long.

Yes, you can cover any boat with panels and install huge battery banks. Again, not practical. It kind of diminishes the point if you spend 10s of 1000s of dollars to save $15/month for propane.

BTW, propane and butane are interchangeable in most appliances. Butane is more readily available in Europe.
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Old 23-02-2014, 06:04   #105
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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And what fraction of 1% of total biofuel consumption falls into this category?
What does it matter what the percentage is ?

Or are you just looking for a scapegoat to do nothing ?

Biodiesel is a real alternative for boat owners who don't want to / can't spend 1000's on solar and lithium yet make a difference.
Google around and you will find biodiesel producers/co-ops to get your fuel from, and it took me about 1minute to find that one in the Caribbean.
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