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Old 22-02-2014, 12:40   #76
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

You brought up the range of electric cars. Top of the line high end cars (read very expensive) can travel 150-200 miles on a charge. Sound great?

But to get an idea of the difference: A gallon of diesel will push my F250 around 22miles. A gallon of diesel pushing a boat you are looking at 3-5miles at 1/10th the speed. It takes a lot of energy to push a hull thru water that is much thicker than air.

If you throw unlimited amounts of money at it, ignore the side effects, live with substandard performance and beta testing a not ready for prime time system, you can do an electric boat...buy other than to prove you can, why would you?
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:00   #77
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Actually the end-to-end efficiency of electric cooking, provided you use an induction cooktop, is about the same as cooking on propane. To me the whole idea of having a single fuel boat looks quite attractive.
.....as long as you don't care about baking or roasting in an oven or the effect the induction cooktop's magnetic field may have on your compass and other sensitive instruments, and you don't mind the sound of your genset every time you want to cook a meal and you only plan to cook when the boat is level so your pans and food won't slide off onto the sole.

My sailboat has solar panels and a wind generator and a genset and a high output alternator, so no shortage of ways to generate electricity, and to me the idea of leaving the induction cooktop ashore and keeping my gimballed propane stove and oven sounds pretty attractive.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:06   #78
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
How about an informal poll:

How many think that Delancy is serious?

How many think he is having us on?

I surely hope that he is joking.

Jim
Well he is either joking or is a joke so in accordance with the be nice rule, I will vote for "joking"

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
I understand that a new company called Wetlsa will be putting in wind generator charging stations all along popular ocean routes, so you can stop in and recharge your electric boat.

Very popular around Holland I believe
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:42   #79
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Zero emissions electricity. That will be the day eh?
Well, true it does emit in the electromagnetic spectrum and supposedly high-power transmission lines can mess with migrating birds or butterflies or some such nonsense but there are plenty of birds around here so I didn't include it.

Besides, doesn't lighting produce ozone to replace the stuff that goes missing? Electricity is good energy.
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Old 22-02-2014, 13:48   #80
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Well, true it does emit in the electromagnetic spectrum and supposedly high-power transmission lines can mess with migrating birds or butterflies or some such nonsense but there are plenty of birds around here so I didn't include it.

Besides, doesn't lighting produce ozone to replace the stuff that goes missing? Electricity is good energy.
Just on the off-chance that you are serious (), can you explain how this good energy is produced, especially in the amounts that the average first worlder uses daily - whether boating or at home?

Apart from lightning I am not aware of any naturally occurring sources of this good stuff, certainly haven't seem any of harvested in any real sense.
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:14   #81
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Just on the off-chance that you are serious (), can you explain how this good energy is produced, especially in the amounts that the average first worlder uses daily - whether boating or at home?

Apart from lightning I am not aware of any naturally occurring sources of this good stuff, certainly haven't seem any of harvested in any real sense.
It's nothing short of magical, you just hook up these wires to your house or boat or electric car, and electricity is there, and I've never seen it emit anything, have you?! That's why they call vehicles that use electricity, zero emission vehicles! There are actually people who think this way, and unfortunately they are even allowed to vote. Many of them think mentioning the term "peer reviewed" automatically means they won the argument.
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:35   #82
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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ok.. so, I'm not very knowledgable about electric systems.. But, in my mind... if you can have an electric powered car.. why is an electric boat so out of the question?
Electric cars have the advantage of regenerative braking, meaning when you apply the brakes you are utilizing the energy needed to slow the car to turn a generator which charges your batteries - this is very efficient. In a boat you don't have that advantage.
Someone else mentioned an electric motor that would reverse spin the prop when under sail to generate electricity to charge the batteries - somewhat similar concept but in this case you are robbing the boat of speed. That energy has to come from somewhere.

You just can't beat the energy density of carbon based fuels....
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Old 22-02-2014, 14:58   #83
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Can You Help Settle an Argument?

I fail to see the point of this argument. It's entirely clear that self sustained electrical power marine craft are not basically workable -YET. Current battery technology at its very best is about one third the W/density of petroleum. But technology will get there in the end.

Arguments over electricity generation are entirely specious. It's perfectly possible to convert prime energy generation away from hydrocarbon based sources. Again that's doable in any time frame typical of these systems.

Electric car technology is very nearly here in terms of range, all we really need is to build modular replacement " battery filing stations" to get round the recharging issue. Gasoline would be never have got off the ground if you had to wait for the refinery to generate the gallons you need at the pump. Ultimately we need the same infrastructure for electric vehicles that we have for current cars.

What can't be denied is that the IC engine is a piece of 19th century engineering lingering on on,y because of the energy storage density of its fuel. As a propelling machine, it's inefficient, high maintenance and outdated compared to electric. One only has to see the Tesla Model 80 outperform Porches to see that.

Once we sort the recharging infrastructure, gasoline powered cars will virtually disappear overnight.

Ultimately PV technology and storage technology will arrive at a nexus of cost versus performance and such self sustsinibg vessels will be possible, until then we can debate it until the cows come home on CF.

Dave
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Old 22-02-2014, 15:02   #84
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Actually the end-to-end efficiency of electric cooking, provided you use an induction cooktop, is about the same as cooking on propane. To me the whole idea of having a single fuel boat looks quite attractive.
Provide you are connected to shorepower, an induction cooktop is very efficient. But, as I stated, wasting 75-85% of the BTUs of diesel to generate electricity kind of negates the efficiency of induction cooking. At this point, propane wins hands down in the bang for buck department!!
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Old 22-02-2014, 15:15   #85
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I can't believe anyone with a decent size solar array wouldn't have a hot plate. To be used when the solar panels are putting out more than the batteries can take which happens around lunch time. Giving enough time for the panels to recharge batteries for electricity taken.
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Old 22-02-2014, 15:15   #86
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Jeez, the problems of the North huh ?
I'll never own a multi of the size that creates these dilemmas but if I did I would think the best "available now" green fuel technology would be biodiesel ?
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Old 22-02-2014, 15:19   #87
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Arguments over electricity generation are entirely specious. It's perfectly possible to convert prime energy generation away from hydrocarbon based sources. Again that's doable in any time frame typical of these systems.

Dave
How? Lets say a reasonable sized cruising boat, fully loaded, needs about 10kW/hour CONTINUOUSLY for propulsion.

Using today's technology, how do you generate that without burning fossil fuels?
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Old 22-02-2014, 15:20   #88
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Provide you are connected to shorepower, an induction cooktop is very efficient. But, as I stated, wasting 75-85% of the BTUs of diesel to generate electricity kind of negates the efficiency of induction cooking. At this point, propane wins hands down in the bang for buck department!!
I do not understand why you are so focussed on the inefficiency of diesel generated electricity ...... for an induction cook top

Solar, wind, batteries for storage and an inverter will work very well for induction.


Rob
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Old 22-02-2014, 15:32   #89
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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How? Lets say a reasonable sized cruising boat, fully loaded, needs about 10kW/hour CONTINUOUSLY for propulsion.

Using today's technology, how do you generate that without burning fossil fuels?
I meant prime energy generation, ie power plants. Self sustaining power generation as in a marine vessel isn't really possible at this juncture

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Old 22-02-2014, 15:32   #90
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Biodiesel can but burnt directly at the cooktop, heater or genset.
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