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Old 21-02-2014, 20:03   #46
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

No professional chef would choose an electric stove if any form of gas is an option. Electric oven, yes, stove no. An electric burner element is as dangerous as a gas flame when on and stays hot when switched off to boot. Sorry, this round goes to hubby
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Old 21-02-2014, 21:41   #47
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
The whole "green thing" is feel good marketing rubbish...created so that Americans can continue to consume 100x more resources per capita than the rest of the world and feel all warm and fuzzy about it.

Absolutely nothing "green" about buying an expensive boat with lots of toys...and all the energy and waste that just goes into producing them.

If you really want to benefit the environment then down size your life style and buy a bicycle not a boat.
That is true. However, I'd rather have 'Green' marketing rubbish than 'Supersize Me' marketing rubbish, i.e. my SUV is bigger than your SUV. It is a move in the right direction at least. To think why bother it doesn't matter is just denial.

Anyone serious does need to think about the actual 'carbon footprint' effect of what they do, and it isn't so simple. Buying an existing boat instead of a new one would be better, as fiberglass lasts a very long time and is not recycled. Air conditioning uses a lot of energy.

I have been making a fiberglass cat dinghy, and I am unhappy with all the waste that it creates in the process. My trash can is full of plastic.
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Old 21-02-2014, 22:01   #48
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Re: can you help settle an argument?

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Read no more; Factor is 10,000% correct here; no, make that 10,000,000,0.....% correct.

It is really simple, the more you use, the more it costs the environment. Yes, some energy sources are "greener" than others but they all have an impact/cost.

As a rule of thumb, the cheapest one's are usually the most polluting and vice versa.

So choose how much energy you can live with (or without) and how much you are willing to pay and then you will know how "green" you really are. Hint, it you wants lots of power very cheaply - you are brown, very brown!

Don't forget to include the "embedded" energy there is any system i.e. the energy required to design, manufacture and deliver the items you are using (like sails, engines, solar panels, hydrogen fuel cells and so on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
The whole "green thing" is feel good marketing rubbish...created so that Americans can continue to consume 100x more resources per capita than the rest of the world and feel all warm and fuzzy about it.

Absolutely nothing "green" about buying an expensive boat with lots of toys...and all the energy and waste that just goes into producing them.

If you really want to benefit the environment then down size your life style and buy a bicycle not a boat.
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Simply amazing...there are real life, 100% solar vessels out there and people say it just ain't so...

Sure they can't be 100% solar in areas with little sun and they can't run at 25 knots for days on end...but there are vessels out there right now cruising, cooking, heating, etc...etc...on 100% solar...they may be ugly...but they do exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
That is true. However, I'd rather have 'Green' marketing rubbish than 'Supersize Me' marketing rubbish, i.e. my SUV is bigger than your SUV. It is a move in the right direction at least. To think why bother it doesn't matter is just denial.

Anyone serious does need to think about the actual 'carbon footprint' effect of what they do, and it isn't so simple. Buying an existing boat instead of a new one would be better, as fiberglass lasts a very long time and is not recycled. Air conditioning uses a lot of energy.

I have been making a fiberglass cat dinghy, and I am unhappy with all the waste that it creates in the process. My trash can is full of plastic.
Maybe you can find a middle ground here. It won't be easy though.
Just the fact of owning one of the cats you looked at means that 300 starve to death because you did not send the resources directly to them does not mean you should not try to be efficient.
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Old 21-02-2014, 22:40   #49
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Well, speaking for my wife and myself, we usually sleep good at night knowing that we are doing our part to protect the environment when we choose to use electricity.

After all, it's the cleanest form of energy there is! Electricity has absolutely zero emissions!

You know, if people would just use more more electricity maybe this world wouldn't be so messed up. What do you think about that?

Also, for you solar and wind people, maybe you've never heard of a thing called light pollution? Or maybe another little thing called noise pollution? Apparently not.

I swear, it was so windy the other night I could hardly catch a wink, it was making my halyards slap against the mast so hard. What a racket it was making.

Seriously people, wake up!
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Old 21-02-2014, 23:01   #50
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Well, speaking for my wife and myself, we usually sleep good at night knowing that we are doing our part to protect the environment when we choose to use electricity. After all, it's the cleanest form of energy there is! Electricity has absolutely zero emissions!

You know, if people would just use more more electricity maybe this world wouldn't be so messed up. What do you think about that?

Also, for you solar and wind people, maybe you've never heard of a thing called light pollution? Or maybe another little thing called noise pollution? Apparently not.

I swear, it was so windy the other night I could hardly catch a wink, it was making my halyards slap against the mast so hard. What a racket it was making.

Seriously people, wake up!
I'm trying to work out if you're joking. I hope so!
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Old 21-02-2014, 23:22   #51
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Scarlet. Check out the Greencat 445.
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Old 21-02-2014, 23:28   #52
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

You know, one thing I don't joke about is sleep. If I sleep poorly it wrecks my whole day and honestly, the other night was almost too much, it was so windy.

The halyard thing is all banging away and just when I am starting to fall asleep the boat keeps lurching to a stop and I am thinking we ran aground or hit something even though we are tied to the dock. What a mess!

Wind power, what a crock! You can take it and your cancer causing sunshine and forget it. I mean, what part of solar RADIATION don't people understand? Hello? Anyone?

I will stick with good old fashioned electricity thank you very little. If it worked for Benjamin Franklin, it works for me.
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Old 21-02-2014, 23:53   #53
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

How about an informal poll:

How many think that Delancy is serious?

How many think he is having us on?

I surely hope that he is joking.

Jim
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Old 21-02-2014, 23:57   #54
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

Anyone who wears a hat like that has to be joking.

Coops.
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Old 22-02-2014, 00:07   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
How about an informal poll:

How many think that Delancy is serious?

How many think he is having us on?

I surely hope that he is joking.

Jim
Hey Jim some people have a warped sense of humor, just look at his avatar(heheh). the thing that makes it confusing is he's for electricity. And I guess he would be too obvious if he put down idiots that think they can propel vessels with wind
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Old 22-02-2014, 00:10   #56
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Originally Posted by pathlesschosen View Post
Scarlet. Check out the Greencat 445.
Now that's another expensive vessel. Haven't heard much feedback lately from its success. Was plenty of promotion by the builder.

I like the concept of electric propulsion but have not heard much positive feedback with success stories.

Just last year the Tag 60 (Tang)electric drive ca thad some very expensive issues. Never heard that it was sorted.

http://www.gizmag.com/hybrid-electric-tang-yacht/16621/ Very high tech expensive system still with question marks.. really still under development.
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Old 22-02-2014, 01:39   #57
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Simply amazing...there are real life, 100% solar vessels out there and people say it just ain't so...

Sure they can't be 100% solar in areas with little sun and they can't run at 25 knots for days on end...but there are vessels out there right now cruising, cooking, heating, etc...etc...on 100% solar...they may be ugly...but they do exist.
Yes it exists. A power cat that can only do 5 knots for 5 hours if you don't use the diesel. Somewhere around 600 ft^2 of solar panels, 6KWatts of panels, so maybe $6000, then you add the cost of the diesel generator, 50KW-hr of batteries and it ain't cheap. All for something that doesn't perform well. When we have the paint on solar panels and paint topsides, deck and sails then there'll be enough room on a sailboat.
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Old 22-02-2014, 01:59   #58
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

glenn.225 has a very positve attitude.

I actually do think it is not possible to seriously consider a world cruiser that is all electric. There are no mid-ocean plug in places.

Check it out.

Ann
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Old 22-02-2014, 02:31   #59
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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No professional chef would choose an electric stove if any form of gas is an option. Electric oven, yes, stove no. An electric burner element is as dangerous as a gas flame when on and stays hot when switched off to boot. Sorry, this round goes to hubby
Professional chefs maybe. They have to have the best and that is gas. Induction cookers are a close alternative. Use much less power than conventional electric, are very fast in control. Big advantage is no dangerous gas aboard, no filling of tanks and nil maintenance. They are increasingly being fitted on new boats. I think they are the way to go.
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Old 22-02-2014, 03:10   #60
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Re: Can You Help Settle an Argument?

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That sounds a bit like I'm intentionally opening a can of worms... doesn't it?


What do you think? can we do it all electric?
The answer is in the numbers. Here are a few. Excuse the really rough figures. They are for a mid size yacht - this is just for the purpose of illustration.

Energy per litre fuel using a genset: 3 kWh
Range of a Diesel engine per lt fuel: 1nm
Range of an electric motor per KWh: 0.25nm
Energy produced by 10m2 of panels / day: 12kWh
Full air con boat: 30kWh
Other boat power: 6kWh

So you can see it just doesn't make sense in a conventional boat. You can also see it is possible to make a hybrid genset/electric power boat work. Not at all a bad option if your balance of energy is more gadgets than propulsion. You could go all electric for everything but propulsion. AC is the borderline issue. You need to get silly amounts of panels, loads of lifepo batteries, work on efficiency and use it maybe only at night to make AC possible.
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